2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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lebesset
lebesset
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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thomin wrote:
sAx wrote:
thomin wrote:Also, remember that Rosberg had much more fuel in hand compared to Hamilton.
Much more?? How much more???
So much more that he had to go at lengths to burn it behind the safety car as he wouldn't have been able to use it.
It is also something that was said on the team radio a couple of times plus it was occasionally shown in an info graphic during the live feed, though I don't remember the specific numbers.
but hamilton had already been told that he had enough fuel to not save ; maybe rosberg was told he didn't need to do that ...I don't remember ; point is , it wasn't an issue after the safety car
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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Phil
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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thomin wrote:So much more that he had to go at lengths to burn it behind the safety car as he wouldn't have been able to use it.
It is also something that was said on the team radio a couple of times plus it was occasionally shown in an info graphic during the live feed, though I don't remember the specific numbers.
I'm not sure, but I thought the graphic was more or less an "estimate" - an estimate of assuming 100kg and then doing a rough calculation on the data that the fuel-flow-meter supplies. For this reason, I was under the impression that you couldn't take this data at face value to conclude if the cars are underfueled or not. AFAIR, Rosberg did use less fuel, yes, but I didn't think the difference was very significant. Maybe 0.1% to 1% range.

That Rosberg wanted to burn fuel is clear, because once the safety car was out and they were doing 6 laps of coasting at low speed, he'd effectively have 6 laps of fuel too much (same probably goes for Lewis to a degree). Rosberg wanted every possible advantage to pass his team mate and kudos for him for thinking about burning off fuel. I'm not convinced though the fuel difference between the two cars was that significant though.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Emerson.F
Emerson.F
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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If anybody wants some videolinks from this weekend. Pm me.
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Phil
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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Stradivarius wrote:I agree that the races and the championship still has the potential of being close despite Mercedes advantage, since Hamilton and Rosberg are at the same level. But I am a bit worried. We have already discussed the strategies, but even if Rosberg's strategy wasn't much slower than Hamilton's, don't you think it mattered at all for Mercedes that they were able to avoid close, risky battles by running different strategies? When Rosberg had his first go at Hamilton and was forced off the track, he came on the radio and said: "Warn him, that was not on!" And the kind of close racing we saw for the last couple of laps of the first stint and the first laps after safety car, was very exciting for us, but probably very uncomfortable for the top Mercedes people to watch, as that kind of aggressiveness that we saw from Lewis does not come without risk. We have all seen Hamilton making contact with others in situations like that. Happily for Mercedes, Rosberg yielded every time that he had to. My concern is that Mercedes will ruin the excitement. In Bahrain they were about to do it through the strategies, but failed because of the safety car. Next time I don't know what they will do.
AFAIR, Rosberg's "Warn him, that was not on" was right after his very first attempt to pass Lewis in the DRS zone when he overtook on the inside, slightly overshot (due to braking late at a higher speed) and Hamilton swerved left and then right (behind Rosberg) to take an extremely tight line back to the inside of the corner past the apex. Rosberg, who overshot slightly immediately accelerated, steering towards back to the inside, but Lewis came storming past and nearly hit his front-right with his left-rear. Miraculously, contact was avoided by Rosberg turning left by reflex. The margin was very very close though. IMO that was also the most "iffy" moment in the whole battle where things could have ended in tears.

About the inter-team rivalry: I have to admit, I am a bit worried too, that certain rules will be made to avoid too fierce battling at a certain stage. Qualifying will be thus very important. At this stage though, Mercedes being the dominant car and the team with the largest interest in these new engines, will have every incentive to keep the sport "entertaining" as RedBull and Ferrari together with Bernie are loud on the criticism over this new Formula. With the advantage they have, they can afford to too. This IMO is a good reason for them not employ teamorders [to a certain degree].

I also think Niki, who is closely tied to the RTL coverage, has also been very vocal about them not employing team-orders as that is not in the spirit of Mercedes. He was also very vocal/critical last year when Brawn ordered Rosberg to stand down in Malaysia. This might all be show until it suits the agenda of the team, but I think as long as Mercedes remain dominant and with a clear advantage, they might actually let their drivers fight for the wins. I hope they do. I guess we will see soon enough...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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sAx
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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thomin wrote:
sAx wrote:
thomin wrote:Also, remember that Rosberg had much more fuel in hand compared to Hamilton.
Much more?? How much more???
So much more that he had to go at lengths to burn it behind the safety car as he wouldn't have been able to use it.
It is also something that was said on the team radio a couple of times plus it was occasionally shown in an info graphic during the live feed, though I don't remember the specific numbers.
IF % is a close approximation to litres, then from the information provided on live feed, Rosberg's fuel consumption was 31.68 to Hamilton's 32.13 on lap 19 before pitstops. So maybe not quite 'so much more'.
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lebesset
lebesset
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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Phil wrote:
Stradivarius wrote:I agree that the races and the championship still has the potential of being close despite Mercedes advantage, since Hamilton and Rosberg are at the same level. But I am a bit worried. We have already discussed the strategies, but even if Rosberg's strategy wasn't much slower than Hamilton's, don't you think it mattered at all for Mercedes that they were able to avoid close, risky battles by running different strategies? When Rosberg had his first go at Hamilton and was forced off the track, he came on the radio and said: "Warn him, that was not on!" And the kind of close racing we saw for the last couple of laps of the first stint and the first laps after safety car, was very exciting for us, but probably very uncomfortable for the top Mercedes people to watch, as that kind of aggressiveness that we saw from Lewis does not come without risk. We have all seen Hamilton making contact with others in situations like that. Happily for Mercedes, Rosberg yielded every time that he had to. My concern is that Mercedes will ruin the excitement. In Bahrain they were about to do it through the strategies, but failed because of the safety car. Next time I don't know what they will do.
AFAIR, Rosberg's "Warn him, that was not on" was right after his very first attempt to pass Lewis in the DRS zone when he overtook on the inside, slightly overshot (due to braking late at a higher speed) and Hamilton swerved left and then right (behind Rosberg) to take an extremely tight line back to the inside of the corner past the apex. Rosberg, who overshot slightly immediately accelerated, steering towards back to the inside, but Lewis came storming past and nearly hit his front-right with his left-rear. Miraculously, contact was avoided by Rosberg turning left by reflex. The margin was very very close though. IMO that was also the most "iffy" moment in the whole battle where things could have ended in tears.

About the inter-team rivalry: I have to admit, I am a bit worried too, that certain rules will be made to avoid too fierce battling at a certain stage. Qualifying will be thus very important. At this stage though, Mercedes being the dominant car and the team with the largest interest in these new engines, will have every incentive to keep the sport "entertaining" as RedBull and Ferrari together with Bernie are loud on the criticism over this new Formula. With the advantage they have, they can afford to too. This IMO is a good reason for them not employ teamorders [to a certain degree].

I also think Niki, who is closely tied to the RTL coverage, has also been very vocal about them not employing team-orders as that is not in the spirit of Mercedes. He was also very vocal/critical last year when Brawn ordered Rosberg to stand down in Malaysia. This might all be show until it suits the agenda of the team, but I think as long as Mercedes remain dominant and with a clear advantage, they might actually let their drivers fight for the wins. I hope they do. I guess we will see soon enough...
taking your description as correct it sounds to me that hamilton should have sent a message to rosberg saying that was not on !
having overshot rosberg couldn't expect hamilton not to take the inner line , and as he was ahead far enough that his rear wheel was up to rosbergs front it was rosberg who had to stop cutting back in !
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

beelsebob
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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Just to be clear guys – inter means "between" – inter-team battles are battles between teams. When you are talking about battles between team mates, you mean intra-team.

Re Merc's comments on team orders. I think this simply reinforces that last year at Malaysia, they had genuine concerns that neither car would make the finish, and that the team's result would be spoiled. Here, where they had no such concern, and they just let their drivers race.

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Phil
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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lebesset wrote:taking your description as correct it sounds to me that hamilton should have sent a message to rosberg saying that was not on !
having overshot rosberg couldn't expect hamilton not to take the inner line , and as he was ahead far enough that his rear wheel was up to rosbergs front it was rosberg who had to stop cutting back in !
I'll definately watch it again, but from memory, it's a bit tricky to judge on the race feed because they show the "incident" from Rosberg's angle and it looks like Hamilton is storming past and nearly cut Rosberg's path off and Rosbergs wing / front-right was missed by inches. I think if a collision had occured, it might have been DNF for both Mercedes (the speed differential was quite significant) and I think it would have been quite a argument to who was in the right or wrong. I don't think it was Hamilton's intention to cut-off Rosberg in that instance, but either slightly miscalculated or was surprised by how much speed he carried through by taking the corner like a hook and accelerating earlier than Rosberg who overshot and overcompensated. Luckily nothing happened there. :)
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Emerson.F
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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Its funny although Hamilton said Rosberg studied his telemetry closely after being outclassed by Lewis in Malaysia, the media failed to report how much of a difference it has actually made in Bahrein. During the BBC broadcast Coulthard mentioned it would be impossible for Lewis to keep Nico behind. It's actually quite impressive he proved everyone wrong including me.
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SiLo
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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Nico was running in Hamiltons slipstream for a lot of the race though. It's possible that it would save him some fuel in doing so, especially down all the straights.
Felipe Baby!

henra
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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FoxHound wrote: That chassis and the aero is not getting enough Kudos in my opinion.
Hmmm, dunno.
Although it is surely very good I'm not convinced it is miles better than the others, especially than RB10.
The Advantage being much bigger at Bahrain which is a pretty Non Aero Ciruit with long straights and many hairpins (read: Stop and Go Circuit) than on the two other tracks seems to indicate the opposite: Power + Harvesting + Traction + potentially Breaking Stability probably light years ahead, Aero more or less on par. Such a combination would yield roughly what we saw over the first three races.

beelsebob
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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henra wrote:
FoxHound wrote: That chassis and the aero is not getting enough Kudos in my opinion.
Hmmm, dunno.
Although it is surely very good I'm not convinced it is miles better than the others, especially than RB10.
The Advantage being much bigger at Bahrain which is a pretty Non Aero Ciruit with long straights and many hairpins (read: Stop and Go Circuit) than on the two other tracks seems to indicate the opposite: Power + Harvesting + Traction + potentially Breaking Stability probably light years ahead, Aero more or less on par. Such a combination would yield roughly what we saw over the first three races.
Indeed, I don't think it's massively better than RB's. If you adjust teams' times by about 2 seconds a lap slower if they have a Mercedes engine, and about 0.5 seconds a lap faster if they have a Ferrari engine, then you get a grid that looks very similar to what we saw last year. That tells me that the teams are in similar places to last year in terms of aero development, but that the engine is making a big difference.

lebesset
lebesset
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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beelsebob wrote:
henra wrote:
FoxHound wrote: That chassis and the aero is not getting enough Kudos in my opinion.
Hmmm, dunno.
Although it is surely very good I'm not convinced it is miles better than the others, especially than RB10.
The Advantage being much bigger at Bahrain which is a pretty Non Aero Ciruit with long straights and many hairpins (read: Stop and Go Circuit) than on the two other tracks seems to indicate the opposite: Power + Harvesting + Traction + potentially Breaking Stability probably light years ahead, Aero more or less on par. Such a combination would yield roughly what we saw over the first three races.
Indeed, I don't think it's massively better than RB's. If you adjust teams' times by about 2 seconds a lap slower if they have a Mercedes engine, and about 0.5 seconds a lap faster if they have a Ferrari engine, then you get a grid that looks very similar to what we saw last year. That tells me that the teams are in similar places to last year in terms of aero development, but that the engine is making a big difference.
it is already pretty clear that the effect of DRS has been partly negated by the substancial improvement in acceleration with the new power units despite the increased weight .... especially mercedes ; and that is not just a matter of maximum power output but of a number of factors ; acceleration on a circuit such as bahrain is especially important which would explain the even bigger margin between mercedes and the other teams , even the other mercedes equipped teams which have clearly not yet optimised the use of the PU's
interesting times ahead methinks

incidentally BB I had noticed the misuse of inter but , tending to pedantry normally , I decided to let it go this time ! I found it ironic that somebody from the west coast should pick up on this as it is the east coast that has an intracostal waterway !
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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beelsebob wrote:
henra wrote:
FoxHound wrote: That chassis and the aero is not getting enough Kudos in my opinion.
Hmmm, dunno.
Although it is surely very good I'm not convinced it is miles better than the others, especially than RB10.
The Advantage being much bigger at Bahrain which is a pretty Non Aero Ciruit with long straights and many hairpins (read: Stop and Go Circuit) than on the two other tracks seems to indicate the opposite: Power + Harvesting + Traction + potentially Breaking Stability probably light years ahead, Aero more or less on par. Such a combination would yield roughly what we saw over the first three races.
Indeed, I don't think it's massively better than RB's. If you adjust teams' times by about 2 seconds a lap slower if they have a Mercedes engine, and about 0.5 seconds a lap faster if they have a Ferrari engine, then you get a grid that looks very similar to what we saw last year. That tells me that the teams are in similar places to last year in terms of aero development, but that the engine is making a big difference.
No way is the Mercedes Engine worth 2 seconds over the Renault. (maybe Im reading your post wrong, apologies if I am) But if the Renault was that much slower, that would mean the Toro Rosso is a better car than the Mercedes, as Kyvat was under 2 seconds off pole (just) And I dont think anyone would say Kyvat is better than Rosberg right now. It would also mean the Caterham isnt far behind the Ferrari. I think the Power units are something like this

Mercedes Benz
Ferrari +0.8
Renault +1.0
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0

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lebesset
lebesset
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Re: 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix

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I think the amount that the advantage of mercedes depends on the type of track ; they seem to me to gain most out of the corners , better acceleration due to more torque and more traction perhaps, the williams seems to be poor on the latter hence their lack of performance in the wet
would be interesting to make a study of the relative performance of the mercedes engined cars on different tracks and under different conditions
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be