2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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SectorOne wrote:
f1316 wrote:So you think Ferrari were closer to the pace on a power hungry track than a flowing track of fast corners? Or is it the increased length of this track that you think will make the quali gap increase?

I wonder. Pace difference in first two sectors of Barcelona in quali was only about a tenth and a half, after which Ferrari lost a huge amount of time in the slower stuff of S3. I still think that the largest part of Ferrari's deficit is in slow corners (and the way out of them) and tend to think of silverstone as not having so much of them, but perhaps that's a false impression.
I think Ferrari are closer in horsepower then downforce if that makes sense.
Car A with more downforce, matching the straight line grunt of a car B with less downforce means, car A has a lot more horsepower than car B. Drag is a byproduct of downforce and to run a draggy car faster on straights, you need a lot of power. Whole of last year, Williams was quick on straight line, in fact quicker than Merc, but so much slower in downforce hungry sections of a circuit compared to Merc. Ferrari equals Merc this year in terms of straight line, but doesn't hold candle in downforce sections. Clearly means, when Ferrari manage to put as much downforce as Merc have (assuming no change in power output), their car is going to be A WHOLE LOT slower on straight line compared to Mercs. Unlike last year's Bahrain race, we haven't seen two Merc fighting cats and dogs with full power on display. We have only seen them managing the races from the front and that is helping them run their PUs in quite safer manner and in turn, a longer life on PU. 6 Races on one ICE, is quite an example of that strategy. So in all honesty, Merc still possess a big advantage in their power output and downforce, compared to Ferrari.

Another interesting point is, both Ferrari and Merc have 7 tokens left in their pocket. Both have admitted in different places that, their next target for PU upgrade is Monza. Spa, a race prior to Monza would be the sixth race for Merc's 2nd ICE, if they have manage it until then, which then would be logical end of life for that unit. It leaves with another 8 races to spend 7 tokens. They can afford to run the next ICE more aggressively. On the other hand, for Ferrari, it would be the 3rd Specification and 4th ICE, which means all their 7 tokens now have to go into the next iteration as it is their last for the year, unless they are ready to spend token on another iteration and take grid penalty. As it stands, Ferrari still have power deficit, despite spending tokens for development. It would be interesting to see how closer can they get with one last iteration.

tomazy
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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GPR-A wrote:
SectorOne wrote:
f1316 wrote:So you think Ferrari were closer to the pace on a power hungry track than a flowing track of fast corners? Or is it the increased length of this track that you think will make the quali gap increase?

I wonder. Pace difference in first two sectors of Barcelona in quali was only about a tenth and a half, after which Ferrari lost a huge amount of time in the slower stuff of S3. I still think that the largest part of Ferrari's deficit is in slow corners (and the way out of them) and tend to think of silverstone as not having so much of them, but perhaps that's a false impression.
I think Ferrari are closer in horsepower then downforce if that makes sense.
Car A with more drag, matching the straight line grunt of a car B with less drag means, car A has a lot more horsepower than car B. Drag is a byproduct of downforce and to run a draggy car faster on straights, you need a lot of power. Whole of last year, Williams was quick on straight line, in fact quicker than Merc, but so much slower in downforce hungry sections of a circuit compared to Merc. Ferrari equals Merc this year in terms of straight line, but doesn't hold candle in downforce sections. Clearly means, when Ferrari manage to put as much downforce as Merc have (assuming no change in power output), their car is going to be A WHOLE LOT slower on straight line compared to Mercs. Unlike last year's Bahrain race, we haven't seen two Merc fighting cats and dogs with full power on display. We have only seen them managing the races from the front and that is helping them run their PUs in quite safer manner and in turn, a longer life on PU. 6 Races on one ICE, is quite an example of that strategy. So in all honesty, Merc still possess a big advantage in their power output and downforce, compared to Ferrari.

Another interesting point is, both Ferrari and Merc have 7 tokens left in their pocket. Both have admitted in different places that, their next target for PU upgrade is Monza. Spa, a race prior to Monza would be the sixth race for Merc's 2nd ICE, if they have manage it until then, which then would be logical end of life for that unit. It leaves with another 8 races to spend 7 tokens. They can afford to run the next ICE more aggressively. On the other hand, for Ferrari, it would be the 3rd Specification and 4th ICE, which means all their 7 tokens now have to go into the next iteration as it is their last for the year, unless they are ready to spend token on another iteration and take grid penalty. As it stands, Ferrari still have power deficit, despite spending tokens for development. It would be interesting to see how closer can they get with one last iteration.
I edited your quote a bit (changer downforce for drag)

Yes drag is a byproduct of downforce, but not equal to all the cars. Car A can have more drag than car B but the same amount of downforce for exemple. So your conclusion is not so streight forward.

Teams these days are running as much downforce as they can on most of the track (with maybe Red Bull as an exeption, but even this I think is an urban legend*). A few km/h slower down the streight is less important than a few km/h faster throu the corners, it is pure math. For exemple:

Car A has a top speed of 305km/h, but can go 180km/h throu a long fast corner.
Car B has a top speed of 300km/h, but can go 185km/h throu a long fast corner.

Car A is 0.02s faster for 100m of streight, but car B is 0.054s faster throu 100m of the corner. Lets simplify and say that there is 5km track, where half of it is a a long fast corner, and half of it is instantm top speed streight, car B would be 0.85s faster per lap. (car C with a stronger engine that has top speed of A and downforce of B is 0,5s faster than car B)

Car B also has higher exit speed, can accelorate harder and can brake later and will have better tire wear than car A becouse of more downforce. Car A has better fuel consumption becouse of less drag and becouse it is less time on full throtle, and can recover more energy with KERS becouse of longer braking distance.

Mercedes has the best entgine still, but not by a weary big margin, but they have higher downforce car than Ferrari, this is why Ferrari is closer to them on less downforce depended tracks it would seem.

I hope any of this makes sense?

*remmember in V8 days, when Red Bull would hit rev limiter half way down the sreight at 300km/h when all the others had a top speed of 310km/h? Why is top speed now so important to them that they would secrefice downforce for it if it wasn't back than?

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Vasconia
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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Moose wrote:Correct - Ferrari have so far had the smallest gap at tracks with extremely long straights. My impression is that the Merc is no better at all on a straight than the Ferrari, slightly better in high speed corners, and much better in low speed corners.
Arribabene has said that the current Ferrari, as the previous ones, is not particuarly good at slow corners. So yes, it seems that its a problematic aspect in the Scuderia.

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Vasconia
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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J0rd4n wrote:According to Sky there's rain forecast on Sunday. That means a dry race then.
Weather forecast in F1 is a great joke. I cant remember how many times they have predicted a wet race and then... :roll:

Its about time to have a truly wet race in England.

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SiLo
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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Vasconia wrote:
J0rd4n wrote:According to Sky there's rain forecast on Sunday. That means a dry race then.
Weather forecast in F1 is a great joke. I cant remember how many times they have predicted a wet race and then... :roll:

Its about time to have a truly wet race in England.
Yes please!
Felipe Baby!

evered7
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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Hot weather predicted for the next 5 days at Wimbledon. Is London closeby?

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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No, not that close to London.

Forecast is looking like Friday and possibly Saturday might be rain affected. Sunday will, I think, depend on Saturday. If we get thunderstorms on Saturday as looks possible then Sunday more likely to be dry. If it stays hot and humid through to Sunday then heavy showers or thunderstorms are more likely during the race. If it does rain on Sunday then it could be a safety car period because it'll probably be very heavy.

I live a few miles from the circuit.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Juzh
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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tomazy wrote: Teams these days are running as much downforce as they can on most of the track (with maybe Red Bull as an exeption, but even this I think is an urban legend*)
Crucial bit of wording there: "I think".
It's an actual fact RB run much less downforce than they could on most tracks.
tomazy wrote: *remmember in V8 days, when Red Bull would hit rev limiter half way down the sreight at 300km/h when all the others had a top speed of 310km/h? Why is top speed now so important to them that they would secrefice downforce for it if it wasn't back than?
Because their top speed in V8 era was gearing limited, and now it's power limited. With the V8s they could negate renault's power deficiency with shorter gears, which made them equal fast up to 300 kmh, and then they only lost on that last 10 kmh, as opposed to losing out over the entire straight. Obviously calculations showed this to be the optimum solution, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. Also, RB optimized their cars on race pace most of the time with no DRS in play.
With V6T and gearing differences now made redundant, the only way to somehow make up power deficit is to shave off more drag than you normally would to at least give you some chance on the straight. The benefits are much worse than before because any meaningful speed gains will only come at the end of straights where drag becomes a larger factor, and ferrari/merc are still out accelerating you up to that point (and even then staying equal, IF still not better anyway).

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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Here in Belgium we are expecting a heat wave this week, but after the heatwave there should be a day that is cloudy and humid. After that, a thunderstorm should emerge. Silverstone isn't that far away across the Channel. I suppose it might be exotic temperatures on Friday, cloudy and humid on Saturday and perhaps rain and thunderstorm on Sunday.

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djos
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2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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Lol, i heard the English are complaining they are going to have a 35c heat wave! That's just a nice summer day here in Aus, try 40-46c for 2 straight weeks and overnight temps not getting below 30c, that's a heat wave!
"In downforce we trust"

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Thunder
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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djos wrote:Lol, i heard the English are complaining they are going to have a 35c heat wave! That's just a nice summer day here in Aus, try 40-46c for 2 straight weeks and overnight temps not getting below 30c, that's a heat wave!
No, that would be a Firestorm. :lol:
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#aerogollum

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djos
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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Thunders wrote:
djos wrote:Lol, i heard the English are complaining they are going to have a 35c heat wave! That's just a nice summer day here in Aus, try 40-46c for 2 straight weeks and overnight temps not getting below 30c, that's a heat wave!
No, that would be a Firestorm. :lol:
In southern Aus We usually get at least 1 or 2 weeks of over 40c each summer, it's hot but you get used to it.
"In downforce we trust"

multisync
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Re: 2015 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 03-05 July

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djos wrote:Lol, i heard the English are complaining they are going to have a 35c heat wave! That's just a nice summer day here in Aus, try 40-46c for 2 straight weeks and overnight temps not getting below 30c, that's a heat wave!
Not heard anyone complaining...



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