2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Jef Patat wrote:Oh boy, why am I even posting this. Side mirrors should not show the side of your car. What would be the purpose? To check if the car is still there?

To add to andres: an image is worth a thousand words:
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~gdguo/driving/BlindSpot.htm
Great explanation, thanks for posting :D

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Big Mangalhit wrote:
Jef Patat wrote:Oh boy, why am I even posting this. Side mirrors should not show the side of your car. What would be the purpose? To check if the car is still there?

To add to andres: an image is worth a thousand words:
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~gdguo/driving/BlindSpot.htm
Not trying to argue one way or the other because I believe it's a question of the car
From my experience, no it´s not.

Narrow mirrors still provide enough FOV. Some other cars with bigger mirrors or convex ones can solve the problem much easier, but I´ve not driven a car yet wich force you to drive with blind spots.

Not even bigger ones, as big cars with reduced FOV for the center mirror (back window is further away, so FOV is reduced) usually use bigger side mirrors that solve the problem

BTW, the dead angle you´re talking about from the second picture from Jeff link, is only a blind angle because of the car wich is there. In that ilustration the FOV of each mirror (in red) is not fully represented, it only represent what the driver can see, and since there´s a car there, the red zone is not drawn behind the car (from driver point of view) and it finishes with the car (driver can´t see through the car). If that car is not there, the blind spot isn´t either
Last edited by Andres125sx on Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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CBeck113, is right on the money. Seeing the edge of your own car gives you a reference point and is also an important view when driving in reverse that requires you to maneuver into a space. Then seeing the the edge of your car gives you the reference point of knowing you won't hit anything with it when you're maneuvering i.e. into a parking space at the side of a road.

I'm actually dumbfounded that this is actually a discussion.
Andres wrote:And you´re moving your eyes away from the road, wich is far from optimal
Welcome to driving on the road. Moving your eyes away from the road is a necessity at times because it's impossible to have a complete view of what is happening around you. There's a reason why driving schools teach the method I've described, because it limits these moments to a minimum and only when required (i.e. changing lanes).

The method you are proposing is dangerous because your view from the center mirror is very limited and inadequate. For one, you are looking through a very narrow space between the two driver seats and through a window (that might even have sun blinders on). That view is completely obstructed once you have a larger vehicle driving behind you, hence it is impossible to see what is happening on the lanes parallel to yours to the rear, i.e. on the Autobahn.

With the mirrors correctly adjusted (in my illustration), you have a complete view of your side lanes to your rear through both side mirrors by just glancing at them with your eyes. The view in that angle towards the rear also gives you a fairly good indication of approaching vehicles on parallel lanes and their relative speed (because their velocity can be gauged and quantified given the angle), even if there's vehicle right behind you.

The blind-spot is there yes, which is why approaching changing lanes or direction changes under the 3 steps I described is essential and taught in every single competent driving school. In most countries, not doing these 3 steps will result in not passing your drivers exam. Not turning your head to quickly check your blind-spot is a guaranteed accident and akin to walking over a road without looking. It's daft, stupid and dangerous.

Even if we entertain your method, by pointing the side mirrors outward, you are limiting your view and what is happening at the rear by a very narrow limited view through the back window and if there is a vehicle there, you will be blind, meaning to actually attempt changing a lane on the Autobahn, will mean you will have to move your head far left and beyond the blind spot to see if something is coming on the parallel lane from behind at high speed. The time to do so will actually be significantly longer and thus far more dangerous than if you had your side mirrors correctly and only needed to check your blind-spot to make sure nothing is there.

My advice; drive on any meaningful Autobahn, extreme case, in Germany, where you might be stuck in a lane with cars in front and behind you at 100kmh and might be facing cars coming from behind on the fast lane at excess of 140kmh. Seeing those cars in your side mirrors properly gives you an indication if that is the case and what their speed is (as you can trace their movement by just glancing at the mirror, while your peripheral view still sees what is going on in front) and if and when it is safe to move out (not before checking your blind-spot with the mandatory quick glance though).

Image

Note: I took the image from Jefs URL and added the correct side mirror angle (green), as well as added a car coming from far back at high speed, while also adding a car that is obstructing your center-mirror right behind you. A typical case on any typical slightly congested motorway. The gap might be exaggerated slightly (a cars length) but isn't too uncommon. If I wanted to make the point more extreme, I could have placed a truck there.

Anyway, the illustration speaks for itself. If you had the red-view adjusted side-mirrors, you wouldn't see that car approaching at high speed until it literally blizzes past in your mirrors and then windows. Good luck pulling out of your lane then without spending much time desperately turning your head to glance back (just falling short of actually sticking your head out the window to look back #-o).

The only scary thing I can note about moving the mirrors out towards the blind spot is that its leads people to not turn their head at all, making them believe it's actually safe to drive by just glancing at your 3 mirrors. In my country, driving like that (and provoking a dangerous maneuver) would likely mean a loss of your drivers license immediately and for good reason too.

It's actually scary to read stuff like the above URL. Then again, given I drive around 30'000 km on the roads annually (since over 15 years), nothing surprises anymore sadly...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Nickel
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Sometimes things are a matter of opinion, and sometimes you're just wrong. Anyone who thinks they need to see the sides of their stupid car in their mirrors is wrong. The end.

This is literally the first thing that happens in any motor racing school the first time they sit you in the car, they explain this.

So everyone stop self justifying your bad habits and get over it, you're doing it wrong.

Adjust your mirrors so you just have to cock your head to the side ever so slightly to see the side of your car in each mirror and be done with it. Be happy you learned something today.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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That ilustration is far from accurate. The center mirror FOV is wider, it does include the whole back window, so that blind spot drawn in green, in real world is inside center mirror FOV.

Not sure what car or mirror you´re get used to, but on any car I´ve driven I can see not only my lane on the center mirror, but also both lanes at my sides. At least from 5 meters behind me. For closer distances, my side mirrors do the job perfectly.


Wait, I think I know the reason we don´t agree Phil. I´ve never driven a car with a center mirror providing a FOV as narrow as yours! :mrgreen:
Image


As a side note, when I drive, for example with a trailer, I always move my side mirrors inward, and then I´m forced to use the usual procedure you´ve explained moving my head to look at my sides before doing a lane change. But only when my center mirror is obstructed, otherwise it´s not needed at all.

Edax
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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You guys do realise that an F1 car has no center mirror.
And that the average road driver doesn't wear an integral helmet.
And that the mirrors of a F1 car are vibrating around like hell
Which might be the result of them driving around at about three times the legal highway limit.
Besides it is pretty hard to keep your head at the ideal mirror viewing position when it is pulled by up to 5 G's to another direction.

I mean this is is a very interesting discussion. But it is pretty useless to deduce what a F1 driver should or should not be able to see by comparing it to the weekly shopping run to the Wallmart in a Toyota Camry.

And I wouldn't know it for a fact but I suspect theF1-divers get some excellent advice on how to set their mirrors. :D

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Juzh
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Rosberg's fastest lap of the race:

starts at 19:00
https://vimeo.com/161837965

Just listen to all the lift and coast while casually doing 1.34.4. He's not even trying to go fast basically. This merc has got so much sandbags in it it's getting ridiculous now.

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iotar__
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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This turned into a weird one, mirrors how do they work? If it's still Bottas - Ham (not reading it all) then: they connect the dots, car on the right side in the mirror getting bigger + wider line + gap inside = possibility of someone there, he is, do I cut or go wider? It may be too late but don't give me a blind sport. Bottas saw it all, it was mostly (completely?) his fault.

Sky experts are so dishonest, it's 16 lap old S vs 11 SS on still heavy 2nd stint, overtake at the first quater of a chance and Haas is suddenly perfect on tyres? Both the stint and the overtake essential to making the strategy work and Red Bull is now bad on tyres? If it's a driver we're not selling the script is: it's Haas looking after tyres and Ferrari - sod traction, downforce, corners, braking, start position (3-8) and narrow gap for an overtake (SS degradation) - no credit to a driver, repeat x 5.

Button: "I feel that I could've put the car in fifth, sixth place."
Unlucky he didn't have an engine failure in Q, he could claim that he was heading for 6th instead of unpleasant reality 14th ;-). In theory he might not be far from the truth but that would mean Haas is not on Mercedes' level. Now try telling Brundle that.

PTRACER
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Juzh wrote:Rosberg's fastest lap of the race:

starts at 19:00
https://vimeo.com/161837965

Just listen to all the lift and coast while casually doing 1.34.4. He's not even trying to go fast basically. This merc has got so much sandbags in it it's getting ridiculous now.
It's still many seconds slower than his pole time. Also, there wasn't one onboard I saw all race where the driver wasn't lifting and coasting. Everyone was doing it.

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ME4ME
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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I'm intrigued by the sound of the Mercedes on down-shift. It's unlike any other car.

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A-Bap
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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PTRACER wrote:
Juzh wrote:Rosberg's fastest lap of the race:

starts at 19:00
https://vimeo.com/161837965

Just listen to all the lift and coast while casually doing 1.34.4. He's not even trying to go fast basically. This merc has got so much sandbags in it it's getting ridiculous now.
It's still many seconds slower than his pole time. Also, there wasn't one onboard I saw all race where the driver wasn't lifting and coasting. Everyone was doing it.
What was noteworthy about Nico's lap is that the lift-coast was significant and he wasn't overtaking--it was easy-breezy.

With the others, the only times that the lift-coast was similarly significant was during overtake situations, when the driver must necessarily finesse his speed around the apex. (Generally speaking)
Last edited by A-Bap on Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Juzh wrote:Rosberg's fastest lap of the race:

starts at 19:00
https://vimeo.com/161837965

Just listen to all the lift and coast while casually doing 1.34.4. He's not even trying to go fast basically. This merc has got so much sandbags in it it's getting ridiculous now.
With that lift and coasting if it was 1:34.4, not sure what do make of this.
Nico Rosberg
Lap Time
41 1:34.482
42 1:35.577
43 1:35.778
44 1:35.215
45 1:35.806
46 1:35.724
47 1:35.752
48 1:36.217
49 1:36.280
50 1:36.194
51 1:37.264
52 1:36.721
53 1:36.632
54 1:36.519
55 1:36.902
56 1:38.360
57 1:38.101

This is Kimi.
39 1:35.158
40 1:35.315
41 1:35.487
42 1:35.454
43 1:35.620
44 1:36.348
45 1:35.967
46 1:36.272
47 1:35.990
48 1:36.315
49 1:36.166
50 1:36.621
51 1:36.388
52 1:36.551
53 1:36.955
54 1:37.519
55 1:37.683
56 1:37.045
57 1:41.619

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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mbchc wrote:Speaking of car control, I watched onboard with Pascal. I can clearly see him struggling to keep the car going straight... I have to constantly correct the car from the initial turn in to mud corner and acceleration... Well I think straight line speed is really not the huge deal when you don't have a stable car...
Vandoorne was very busy at the wheel too. That Mclaren looks unstable.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2016 Bahrain Grand Prix - Bahrain, April 01-03

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Lewis lost 1 seconds (traffic included). His team didn't say the clean air value though. I think they are just being coy to hide how much Nico was pushing.

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