2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

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Jester Maroc
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by Jester Maroc » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:05 am

ChrisDanger wrote: When said if Whiting had asked him to change his approach, Verstappen said: "They didn't see it as something wrong. Maybe it was on the edge. And then maybe they would introduce a black-and-white flag if it happened again."
How can Max go ahead and believe that the FIA do not see what he did as wrong...and then in the next breath mention that the FIA might introduce a black-and-white flag if he does it again? Is he so unreflective? If he did nothing wrong, why then the flag? #-o
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by hollus » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:17 am

For anyone wondering if top speeds are up to differences in gearing:
Image
2016 gearing

In the long gears, the differences are in the range of 5km/h, and that only means that teams wil be in slightly different rpms at the same speed, which should have only a very small effect on power. At DRS terminal speeds, we might start to see differences, but not really much below, say, 350km/h:
Top speeds: Mercedes has to go to 12104rpm to reach 340km/h and to 12816rpm to reach 360km/h, already way out of the optimum. Ferrari can do the same at 11942rpm and 12645rpm. A tiny bit better for overtaking, but hardly earth shattering differences. If anyone dares to try to reach 370km/h in Monza or Mexico, the worst equipped team is Red Bull which would need to reach 13205rpm, while the best geared team for the task is Renault which needs only 12892rpm.
At the Mclaren thread, though, some people posted that McLaren seems to shift from 7th to 8th 20-30 km/h later than Mercedes drivers, which translates to about 700rpm difference in some cases. This would not reflect different gearing (see above), but it might reflect very differently shaped power curves; either which reach maximum power at different revs, a 700rpm difference; or a flat versus a peaky power curve.
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by djos » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:19 am

Jester Maroc wrote:
ChrisDanger wrote: When said if Whiting had asked him to change his approach, Verstappen said: "They didn't see it as something wrong. Maybe it was on the edge. And then maybe they would introduce a black-and-white flag if it happened again."
How can Max go ahead and believe that the FIA do not see what he did as wrong...and then in the next breath mention that the FIA might introduce a black-and-white flag if he does it again? Is he so unreflective? If he did nothing wrong, why then the flag? #-o
It's called "cognitive dissonance", it's the same problem that affects conservatives.... :wink:
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Jester Maroc
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by Jester Maroc » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:32 am

djos wrote:
Jester Maroc wrote:
ChrisDanger wrote: When said if Whiting had asked him to change his approach, Verstappen said: "They didn't see it as something wrong. Maybe it was on the edge. And then maybe they would introduce a black-and-white flag if it happened again."
How can Max go ahead and believe that the FIA do not see what he did as wrong...and then in the next breath mention that the FIA might introduce a black-and-white flag if he does it again? Is he so unreflective? If he did nothing wrong, why then the flag? #-o
It's called "cognitive dissonance", it's the same problem that affects conservatives.... :wink:
:D :lol: :D
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by Andres125sx » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:49 am

hollus wrote:For anyone wondering if top speeds are up to differences in gearing:
http://i.imgur.com/SC6H8Yq.png
2016 gearing

In the long gears, the differences are in the range of 5km/h, and that only means that teams wil be in slightly different rpms at the same speed, which should have only a very small effect on power. At DRS terminal speeds, we might start to see differences, but not really much below, say, 350km/h:
Top speeds: Mercedes has to go to 12104rpm to reach 340km/h and to 12816rpm to reach 360km/h, already way out of the optimum. Ferrari can do the same at 11942rpm and 12645rpm. A tiny bit better for overtaking, but hardly earth shattering differences. If anyone dares to try to reach 370km/h in Monza or Mexico, the worst equipped team is Red Bull which would need to reach 13205rpm, while the best geared team for the task is Renault which needs only 12892rpm.
At the Mclaren thread, though, some people posted that McLaren seems to shift from 7th to 8th 20-30 km/h later than Mercedes drivers, which translates to about 700rpm difference in some cases. This would not reflect different gearing (see above), but it might reflect very differently shaped power curves; either which reach maximum power at different revs, a 700rpm difference; or a flat versus a peaky power curve.
FI 1st gear ratio is correct?

Looks weird with first gear much shorter than any other car, but second gear longe than some :?:

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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by hollus » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:10 pm

1st gears are less reliable than the others and Force India's was particularly problematic, the data are from very few points in a not so slow corner, compared to slower corners plus pit lane rev limiters for most other teams. I mean, the rev range used is also used for other teams, but it is not impossible that some wheel spin went uncorrected when gathering the data, so you might very well be right.
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ripper
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by ripper » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:20 pm

Mercedes will go for a one stop race with soft-medium tyres?

Juzh
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by Juzh » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:31 pm

ripper wrote:Mercedes will go for a one stop race with soft-medium tyres?
No.
Soft, medium, SuperS, superS.
/s

GPR-A
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by GPR-A » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:41 pm

The difference in performance in the Ascari chicane on Q3 lap of Monza. Red is the driver under breaking and Green, is Driver on throttle.

Image

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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by FoxHound » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:42 pm

Juzh wrote:But since you started it.
Magnussen had a shitload of slipstream in Q1 behind rosberg and then never once came close to 354.

FP1:
http://i.imgur.com/UE4RVeG.jpg
FP2:
http://i.imgur.com/X0FJmEf.jpg
FP3:
http://i.imgur.com/UCVCSFy.jpg

Oh look. Renault have somehow found another ~100 bhp of deployment to use suddenly in the time space from fp3 until Q1. But only for 1 car of 4 that they run :lol:

So no, top speeds don't have sh1t to do with gearing anymore, and it most definitely didn't influence red bull/magnussen discrepancy.

You said "slipstream"? That is a nonsense, Magnussen did that speed with no car ahead of him to provide it.
For you to say that fits your narrative, and that is unsustantiated to say the least.
Here's a link to prove that....

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/form ... /63760-054
54 min mark, 1h mark, 1h10min mark.
Magnussen did 3 runs, each speed check was done on the timed run. All 3 runs did not have the benefit of slipstream as K Mag had a clear track ahead of him. Verdict? No slipstream from the footage.

And Renault don't run 4 cars, they run 2.
4 cars have their engines, with both teams having different gearing as clearly depicted in the graph kindly made by Hollus with your input....Thanks for that! :D
Renault have longer higher gears which would give them a better chance of attaining better tops speeds drag dependant.
Red Bull have closer lower gears which helps with acceleration but a shorter 8th gear which would cut top speed potential.
Red Bull are the last team to shift 6th and 7th gears, with the shortest 8th....This has obvious implications on top speed, bearing in mind the shorter ratios they utilise further down the gears.

To say top speeds has nothing to do with gearing is absurd to me.
Last edited by FoxHound on Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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basti313
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by basti313 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:44 pm

ripper wrote:Mercedes will go for a one stop race with soft-medium tyres?
Sure, if nothing happens. But I hope for something like an early or late SC to spice things up a bit.

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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by bauc » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:50 pm

Hoping for clean start for all and good race all trough
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basti313
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by basti313 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:32 pm

Hmmm....Ham has the same pace on 21 lap old Softs as Vettel on new SS...so much for an exciting race due to the bad start.

zeph
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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by zeph » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:49 pm

Mercedes wrecking crew.

That car is a friggin' jet fighter. On mediums it comfortably outpaces Ferrari on the supersofts...

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Re: 2016 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 02-04 September

Post by zeph » Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:24 pm

Did Alonso just set the fastest lap?!?