2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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Mandrake
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Joined: 31 May 2010, 01:31

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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I'd love to see the telemetry of Vettel's car there. I've been looking at the replay now for quite a while and I am not entirely sure the new rule was applied properly.

The track has a slight right hand turn and unlike Verstapped who followed this, Vettel instead took a straight route. If you look at his car from the front there is no movement once he his braking, only when Ricciardo touches him. And you can actually see in Ricciardo's onboard how surprised he is to see Vettel not follow the track but head straight to the apex.

All in all it's still BS that a situation like that is looked at in total isolation and not accounting for the fact that Verstappen blocked Vettel into Ricciardo.....it would be like looking at Hamilton disregarding it was the first lap and all....or penalising a driver taking avoiding action against a car crashing in front of him and cutting the corner because of that.

sosic2121
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Joined: 08 Jun 2016, 12:14

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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FrukostScones wrote:f*ck me, that's great:
Radio transcript GP Mexico:
It's beautiful to see what RB did there. Flavio would be proud.
And yet again, rules don't apply for RB...

Fifty
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016, 17:19

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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[/quote]
Who said any of that? :?:

I guess you know what´s closing the door, right? That´s what Vettel should have done before braking, but once he left the door open, and Ricciardo went in, he cannot close the door while braking. First because that´s probably causing a crash, second because it´s forbidden by the rules.

Vettel did a mistake leaving the door open, and then when he saw Ricciardo going in, tried to solve it... but too late. As simple as that. Specially with a 2k lb car :wink:[/quote]

I think you are confusing my discussion with the other guys. I am not talking about Vettels move. I believe I've only mentioned Nico, Alonso and Max...

And your right. It's as simple as knowing what your vehicle can and can not do and knowing what the car in front will do due to past laps.
And hence it's thenovertaking drivers responsibility to a safe pass. Again NOT like motox PlayStation passing.

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iotar__
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Joined: 28 Sep 2012, 12:31

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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What are we even discussing if this is accepted by FIA clean pass (Ricciardo -Raikkonen Monaco):
http://imgur.com/a/g56Wy
That's not even an attempt. It's just driving straight into other car or perhaps:
Arrivabene "I was determined to have a hard look at the rules, but then I was told that now the move is allowed when the driver in front opens up the line and the one behind manages to put at least one wheel inside. "
Can you believe this explanation? Also according to recent POS 'clarification' Raikkonen moved under braking instead of driving straight into a wall. Why? Because it's a CORNER, Monaco and that's how you take it, you go outside then inside, it doesn't mean putting the wheel there makes any sense, there's no other line nor place for 2 cars and the driver behind knows it [aaargghhh I'm so annoyed ;-) ] Perfectly fine for FIA as long as you're in RB.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/verst ... ds-846635/ Now after every deserved penalty F1 standard setter Verstappen (aka Red Bull's department of disinformation) will be whining about 'clarification'. See Kvyat-USA. Double standards? Dude you're lucky you got away with at least four penalties including two below any basic standards drive throughs (Hungary, Spa) and you complain? Learn your braking points instead or make one clean pass or defense.

joshuagore
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Joined: 12 Feb 2010, 04:01

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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iotar__ wrote:What are we even discussing if this is accepted by FIA clean pass (Ricciardo -Raikkonen Monaco):
http://imgur.com/a/g56Wy
That's not even an attempt. It's just driving straight into other car or perhaps:
Arrivabene "I was determined to have a hard look at the rules, but then I was told that now the move is allowed when the driver in front opens up the line and the one behind manages to put at least one wheel inside. "
Can you believe this explanation? Also according to recent POS 'clarification' Raikkonen moved under braking instead of driving straight into a wall. Why? Because it's a CORNER, Monaco and that's how you take it, you go outside then inside, it doesn't mean putting the wheel there makes any sense, there's no other line nor place for 2 cars and the driver behind knows it [aaargghhh I'm so annoyed ;-) ] Perfectly fine for FIA as long as you're in RB.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/verst ... ds-846635/ Now after every deserved penalty F1 standard setter Verstappen (aka Red Bull's department of disinformation) will be whining about 'clarification'. See Kvyat-USA. Double standards? Dude you're lucky you got away with at least four penalties including two below any basic standards drive throughs (Hungary, Spa) and you complain? Learn your braking points instead or make one clean pass or defense.

Everyone is forgetting the temporal and transient nature of rules when applied by humans profiteering from sport. Sometimes better politics is rewarded over better sport, but how would we know which is which? The way I figure, Verstappens is as Vettel was, and Vettel maybe in the future moreso if he keeps trading his germanic chip, but I love all of it. From the perspective of a once Red Bull fanboi, I can't get enough of the spin, its magic, but it certainly makes me want to paint MV the Villain, maybe intentionally so?

MV Outraged about profanity... http://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/ ... 33831009VB

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iotar__
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Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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Red Bull afer the race: let's get tough on track limits. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... ack-limits:

Austria Verstappen: Magnussen - got 10 s in USA for the same move (only outside not dive across that he couldn't make stick)
Image

Germany: definition of going off and gaining an advantage. BS clarifcation forced on Whiting through Ecclestone by big teams changes nothing in that respect. Big teams including Red Bull - didn't care about track limits then you shameless hypocrites?
Image

Russia: Oh look it's Hamilton, didn't care about him there Mr. Horner, I wonder why ;-)?
Image

Austria: unlike Rosberg (Mex) no one forced him, he outbraked himself (there's a surprise...), yes, it was beneficial, wider line higher speed not blocked by cars making the corner, kept position against 2nd Ferrari.
Image

Singapore: no big deal? Not according to Red Bull, let's get tough and stop those running out of talent and track overtake attempts (advantage gained: wider line, keeping speed and getting closer to the car in front)
Image

Let's put a gravel trap in Singapore #-o . One thing is them spouting this nonsense, RB friendly media selling it as a gospel with big title is another.

sosic2121
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Joined: 08 Jun 2016, 12:14

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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iotar__ wrote:Red Bull afer the race: let's get tough on track limits. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... ack-limits:

Austria Verstappen: Magnussen - got 10 s in USA for the same move (only outside not dive across that he couldn't make stick)
https://s13.postimg.org/dbebg5807/Austria2.jpg

Germany: definition of going off and gaining an advantage. BS clarifcation forced on Whiting through Ecclestone by big teams changes nothing in that respect. Big teams including Red Bull - didn't care about track limits then you shameless hypocrites?
https://s21.postimg.org/l1sy1cj13/Germany2.jpg

Russia: Oh look it's Hamilton, didn't care about him there Mr. Horner, I wonder why ;-)?
https://s16.postimg.org/acdzgq2bp/Russia.jpg

Austria: unlike Rosberg (Mex) no one forced him, he outbraked himself (there's a surprise...), yes, it was beneficial, wider line higher speed not blocked by cars making the corner, kept position against 2nd Ferrari.
https://s15.postimg.org/m4v5jqfyj/Austria.jpg

Singapore: no big deal? Not according to Red Bull, let's get tough and stop those running out of talent and track overtake attempts (advantage gained: wider line, keeping speed and getting closer to the car in front)
https://s21.postimg.org/6et52i82v/Singapore.jpg

Let's put a gravel trap in Singapore #-o . One thing is them spouting this nonsense, RB friendly media selling it as a gospel with big title is another.
+1

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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you're making too much sense ;-)
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss


Vettelswonmeover
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Joined: 27 May 2016, 10:33

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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There was a time when FIA was closer to being the Ferrari International Assistance. Since the departure of Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, the FIA and stewards have become Red Bull's servants. Ricciardo has bumped into Kimi twice this year and into Rosberg 1 time (Hungarian GP i think) but has received no penalty. Max has been moving under braking soo many times that they had to introduce that Max Verstappen rule. Max has been overly aggressive with sooo many drivers this year but has not received any formal punishment. Only a soft tap on the knuckles i.e . a talking to by Charlie Whiting.
Wonder if the Vettel would have been penalized if he had not bad-mouthed Charlie.
The incident happened in the first place because of Max Verstappen's refusal to let Vettel through. He was basically backing Vettel into Ricciardo (after gaining an illegal advantage) and the FIA were just mute spectators.
Vettel did break the newly-minted rule and probably deserved a penalty. But, by giving him a 10 sec penalty and putting him behind Max was equivalent to the FIA validating Max Verstappen's unsportsmanlike behaviour. They could have given Vettel another penalty but at any rate, he should have been kept above Verstappen in the final standings. I would not mind RIC-3, VET-4 and VES-5.

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Andres125sx
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Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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Fifty wrote:And hence it's thenovertaking drivers responsibility to a safe pass. Again NOT like motox PlayStation passing.
So there´s no reason for rules like...

- Drivers cannot do direction changes when defending position, only one is allowed
- No direction changes under braking are allowed when defending position
- Car in front must leave one car width when defending position
.
.
.

We can delete all this from the rulebook because it´s all responsability of the overtaking driver? :roll:

No, driver in front also have some responsability, it´s not like motox Playstation defending :mrgreen:

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Andres125sx
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Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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Vettelswonmeover wrote:The incident happened in the first place because of Max Verstappen's refusal to let Vettel through.
Holy crap! Max did defend his podium postion against Vettel?? He should be banned from F1, it´s common knownledge when any driver see Vettel in his mirrors he must let him pass with no defending at all

Drivers defending his own position.... F1 has lost it :roll: :lol:
Vettelswonmeover wrote: But, by giving him a 10 sec penalty and putting him behind Max was equivalent to the FIA validating Max Verstappen's unsportsmanlike behaviour.
In my book validating and punishing have opposite meanings, because you did notice Max received a penalty too, didn´t you?

sosic2121
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Joined: 08 Jun 2016, 12:14

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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Vettelswonmeover wrote:There was a time when FIA was closer to being the Ferrari International Assistance. Since the departure of Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, the FIA and stewards have become Red Bull's servants. Ricciardo has bumped into Kimi twice this year and into Rosberg 1 time (Hungarian GP i think) but has received no penalty. Max has been moving under braking soo many times that they had to introduce that Max Verstappen rule. Max has been overly aggressive with sooo many drivers this year but has not received any formal punishment. Only a soft tap on the knuckles i.e . a talking to by Charlie Whiting.
Wonder if the Vettel would have been penalized if he had not bad-mouthed Charlie.
The incident happened in the first place because of Max Verstappen's refusal to let Vettel through. He was basically backing Vettel into Ricciardo (after gaining an illegal advantage) and the FIA were just mute spectators.
Vettel did break the newly-minted rule and probably deserved a penalty. But, by giving him a 10 sec penalty and putting him behind Max was equivalent to the FIA validating Max Verstappen's unsportsmanlike behaviour. They could have given Vettel another penalty but at any rate, he should have been kept above Verstappen in the final standings. I would not mind RIC-3, VET-4 and VES-5.
+1
It's incredible what FIA did there.

For me the best part is investing Nico Rosberg for first corner incident!
Max crashed into him and pushed him wide, but that's perfectly fine!

Fifty
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016, 17:19

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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Anyone read mosely's book? It's amazing the things that are done in order to keep teams on the roster.
Red Bull has 4 cars and is not effected by the auto industry economics.

In a time when viewership outside the US is plummeting and manufacturers are laughing at the very thought of reentering F1 (and some thinkingnof leaving) FIA, FOM is going to do what ever Dr RB wants.

Vettelswonmeover
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Joined: 27 May 2016, 10:33

Re: 2016 Grand Prix of Mexico - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 28-30 October

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Andres125sx wrote:
Vettelswonmeover wrote:The incident happened in the first place because of Max Verstappen's refusal to let Vettel through.
Holy crap! Max did defend his podium postion against Vettel?? He should be banned from F1, it´s common knownledge when any driver see Vettel in his mirrors he must let him pass with no defending at all

Drivers defending his own position.... F1 has lost it :roll: :lol:
Vettelswonmeover wrote: But, by giving him a 10 sec penalty and putting him behind Max was equivalent to the FIA validating Max Verstappen's unsportsmanlike behaviour.
In my book validating and punishing have opposite meanings, because you did notice Max received a penalty too, didn´t you?
The fact that Verstappen received a penalty shows that he did gain an advantage by running off track. Had he given the place to Vettel at that time itself, he would have not got that penalty. This again brings me to the point that had Max let Vettel past at that time, the whole VET-RIC incident would not have happened.
In short, the fact that Max received a penalty validates my points

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