2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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dans79
dans79
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Location: USA

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post

giantfan10 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 5:13 am
If with their next upgrade package Ferrari chooses to upgrade the turbo then they can and will upgrade the used undamaged turbos . The end
So I take it you get your understanding of the rules, from what is regurgitated over twitter, Facebook and the like, because that's not at all what the official rules say. Pay close attention the the higlighted part of 23.3 G and all of H.


In short Ferrari is not upgrading already used components without getting a penalty period.

http://www.statsf1.com/reglement/sportif.pdf

23.3 a)
Unless he drives for more than one team (see 23.3(f) below), and subject to the
additions described in b) and c) below, each driver may use no more than four power
units during a Championship season.
23.3 d)
For the purposes of this Article 23.3, the power unit will be deemed to comprise six
separate elements, the engine (ICE), the motor generator unit-kinetic (MGU-K), the
motor generator unit-heat (MGU-H), the energy store (ES), turbocharger (TC) and
control electronics (CE).
Each driver will therefore be permitted to use four of each of the above six components
during
a Championship season and any combination of them may be fitted to a car at
any one time.
23.3 g)
After consultation with the relevant power unit supplier the FIA will attach seals to each
of the relevant components within the power unit prior to them being used for the first
time at an Event in order to ensure that no significant moving parts can be rebuilt or
replaced.


Within one hour of the publication of the official race results exhaust blanking plates
(with one 10mm diameter inspection hole per cylinder) and further seals will be applied
to all used power unit components in order to ensure that they cannot be run or
dismantled between Events.
Upon request to the FIA these additional seals will be removed after the start of initial
scrutineering at the next Event at which the power units are required. All such power
units must remain within the team’s designated garage area when not fitted to a car and
may not be started at any time during an Event other than when fitted to a car eligible
to participate in the Event.
23.3 h)
If any of the FIA seals are damaged or removed from the relevant components within
the power unit after they have been used for the first time those parts may not be used
again unless they were removed under FIA supervision.
164 98 95 7

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SR71
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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henry wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 9:09 am
SR71 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 12:55 am
Xwang wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:23 pm
I think it would be better to forbid carbon brakes and use steel (or ceramic) ones to lengthen the braking zone.
I keep hearing this myth repeated.

From what I understand F1 stopping power is mostly drag. Changing brake materials will have little impact and engineers will quickly solve the slight drop in performance anyways.
Your understanding is misshapen. In stops from high speed aerodynamic drag accounts for maybe 20 to 25% of the retardation initially, dropping to a much lower proportion as the tyre contact force tends towards the vehicle weight at low speeds.

For instance at Spa the stop for Les Combes, 330kph to 130kph, takes about 1.25 seconds using an average power of about 2000Kw. The maximum value for all drag is the engine power, say 675 Kw.


The numbers are extrapolated from Brembo's brake card for 2015. Unfortunately they no longer publish them so I can't link. They give a peak power of 2500Kw which would make the aero contribution about 21% at the beginning of the stop.
Nice, thanks for the info.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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Most boring track on the calendar. The fight for the win was mildly exciting at least, but even that was sorta hollowed knowing that even if Vettel caught Bottas there was no way he was going to pass.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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Mandrake wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:35 pm
In the Bahrain thread it was mentioned that Hamilton was too careful at the start. I feel that today he lost a possible podium that way. He was already alongside Raikkonen but backed out completely not even trying to get the pass done.
I thought he did the best he could. Watch the race start again. He had a reasonable start - it was Kimi just ahead of him, who didn't get a clean getaway. Lewis then moved left to avoid Kimi. At that point and from the onboard, you may think he is ahead of Kimi (which he was), but the car on the right pulling along side was Verstappen. This made it impossible for him to "close any door". Then what happened ahead was that Vettel ahead moved left to get a better entry into the corner. Had Lewis stuck his nose in there, he would have likely lost it. Verstappen effectively shielded Kimi, so when they all got into the braking zone, it was Kimi on the inside, Max somewhere in between and Lewis on the outside. He then judged it perfectly too slow down just enough not to get his front wing chopped by Kimi and Max slotted in behind Lewis.

Overall, IMO, that was the best he could have done given the circumstance of how the race start unfolded. Couldn't choose Kimi getting a bad getaway and the rest played out reasonably okay with the result that he did not damage any thing on his car.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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hollus
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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Teams seem to be having a hard time adapting their strategies to the new situation, in particular Ferrari had a better shot at victory with Vettel than what they actually tried.
We are back to a 2004 situation where you can only pass if you are almost 2 sec/lap faster, at least for circuits like this. Ferrari thought of getting Vettel as far from Bottas´ strategy as possible, they gave him 7 laps fresher tires... and then chickened before taking that strategy to its logical extreme:
They put him in chase mode, and then he spent 10-12 laps stuck behind Bottas with a car that was about 8 tenths faster, likely mostly due to tires.
Why not keep him out there another 5 laps before pitting? They he would have been on 12 laps fresher tires. Behind Raikkonen, but team orders are like fresh water at Ferrari. And he would have been easily in front of Hamilton. Vettel would have rejoined some 10 seconds behind Bottas, caught up at 1.2 - 1.5 seconds per lap, be behind Bottas with 4 laps to go... and with the critical pace difference to pass in the new dirty air era.
They seem to have though of it, since they waited so long, so why did they pit him? Afraid of him losing time behind Raikkonen? Afraid of losing 2nd place to a freak safety car?

Alternatively they could have pitted him when they did, but instead of catching up as fast as possible and getting as close as possible, both of which take life off the tires, he could have caught up slower and then wait 3 seconds behind Bottas and stay at 3 seconds lap after lap, nursing the tires. That way he would still have put pressure on him, and by going slower than possible he would slowly increase the tire usage delta, then pound with 3-4 laps to go.
¡Puxa Esportin!

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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Based on the messages from the wall, Ferrari were going for pressure on Bottas with Vettel. They took a gamble, they could have pitted when Seb was 2.5s behind Bottas and that could have given them a chance for an undercut. Still, they can now be sure that with 1s or less pace advantage you still can't overtake a car in front easily. If there was a race so far to experiment with the strategy, this was it and they got away with it (championship-wise)...
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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iotar__
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 9:35 pm
Based on the messages from the wall, Ferrari were going for pressure on Bottas with Vettel. They took a gamble, they could have pitted when Seb was 2.5s behind Bottas and that could have given them a chance for an undercut. Still, they can now be sure that with 1s or less pace advantage you still can't overtake a car in front easily. If there was a race so far to experiment with the strategy, this was it and they got away with it (championship-wise)...
- 2,5 seconds for an undercut? That doesn't make much sense. Especially with the gap that was closing and tyre difference.

- What overtaking? Vettel got within DRS range, what, 3 laps(?) before the end which makes Massa complaints and salesmen headlines "Vettel: Massa did Bottas "a favour twice"" so much more dishonest, Massa or not he's not overtaking anyone. You can't test something you didn't try.

giantfan10
giantfan10
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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dans79 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 2:31 pm
giantfan10 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 5:13 am
If with their next upgrade package Ferrari chooses to upgrade the turbo then they can and will upgrade the used undamaged turbos . The end
So I take it you get your understanding of the rules, from what is regurgitated over twitter, Facebook and the like, because that's not at all what the official rules say. Pay close attention the the higlighted part of 23.3 G and all of H.


In short Ferrari is not upgrading already used components without getting a penalty period.

http://www.statsf1.com/reglement/sportif.pdf

23.3 a)
Unless he drives for more than one team (see 23.3(f) below), and subject to the
additions described in b) and c) below, each driver may use no more than four power
units during a Championship season.
23.3 d)
For the purposes of this Article 23.3, the power unit will be deemed to comprise six
separate elements, the engine (ICE), the motor generator unit-kinetic (MGU-K), the
motor generator unit-heat (MGU-H), the energy store (ES), turbocharger (TC) and
control electronics (CE).
Each driver will therefore be permitted to use four of each of the above six components
during
a Championship season and any combination of them may be fitted to a car at
any one time.
23.3 g)
After consultation with the relevant power unit supplier the FIA will attach seals to each
of the relevant components within the power unit prior to them being used for the first
time at an Event in order to ensure that no significant moving parts can be rebuilt or
replaced.


Within one hour of the publication of the official race results exhaust blanking plates
(with one 10mm diameter inspection hole per cylinder) and further seals will be applied
to all used power unit components in order to ensure that they cannot be run or
dismantled between Events.
Upon request to the FIA these additional seals will be removed after the start of initial
scrutineering at the next Event at which the power units are required. All such power
units must remain within the team’s designated garage area when not fitted to a car and
may not be started at any time during an Event other than when fitted to a car eligible
to participate in the Event.
23.3 h)
If any of the FIA seals are damaged or removed from the relevant components within
the power unit after they have been used for the first time those parts may not be used
again unless they were removed under FIA supervision.
Yea you are right... finally...
and i did skim one article before i posted.... i obviously researched the facts after i posted that.
I will take Ferraris word for it as far as why they switched turbos....
You will obviously take the opposing view since you're such a diehard Mercedes fan .

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turbof1
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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giantfan10 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 3:31 am
dans79 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 2:31 pm
giantfan10 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 5:13 am
If with their next upgrade package Ferrari chooses to upgrade the turbo then they can and will upgrade the used undamaged turbos . The end
So I take it you get your understanding of the rules, from what is regurgitated over twitter, Facebook and the like, because that's not at all what the official rules say. Pay close attention the the higlighted part of 23.3 G and all of H.


In short Ferrari is not upgrading already used components without getting a penalty period.

http://www.statsf1.com/reglement/sportif.pdf

23.3 a)
Unless he drives for more than one team (see 23.3(f) below), and subject to the
additions described in b) and c) below, each driver may use no more than four power
units during a Championship season.
23.3 d)
For the purposes of this Article 23.3, the power unit will be deemed to comprise six
separate elements, the engine (ICE), the motor generator unit-kinetic (MGU-K), the
motor generator unit-heat (MGU-H), the energy store (ES), turbocharger (TC) and
control electronics (CE).
Each driver will therefore be permitted to use four of each of the above six components
during
a Championship season and any combination of them may be fitted to a car at
any one time.
23.3 g)
After consultation with the relevant power unit supplier the FIA will attach seals to each
of the relevant components within the power unit prior to them being used for the first
time at an Event in order to ensure that no significant moving parts can be rebuilt or
replaced.


Within one hour of the publication of the official race results exhaust blanking plates
(with one 10mm diameter inspection hole per cylinder) and further seals will be applied
to all used power unit components in order to ensure that they cannot be run or
dismantled between Events.
Upon request to the FIA these additional seals will be removed after the start of initial
scrutineering at the next Event at which the power units are required. All such power
units must remain within the team’s designated garage area when not fitted to a car and
may not be started at any time during an Event other than when fitted to a car eligible
to participate in the Event.
23.3 h)
If any of the FIA seals are damaged or removed from the relevant components within
the power unit after they have been used for the first time those parts may not be used
again unless they were removed under FIA supervision.
Yea you are right... finally...
and i did skim one article before i posted.... i obviously researched the facts after i posted that.
I will take Ferraris word for it as far as why they switched turbos....
You will obviously take the opposing view since you're such a diehard Mercedes fan .
Totally uncalled for. Dans79 did all the trouble to post the relevant rules and staying constructive, and the only thing you were able to do was trying to discredit him as "diehard mercedes fan".

What Dans79 says, is completely right. This has nothing to do whoem you are fan of. Ferrari cannot update their used turbo's. The only exceptions are supports, hydraulics (pipes and pumps), auxiliaries, etc which are allowed to be changed any time. But that does not include a turbo and hence why Ferrari is going to have to swallow penalties, either by introducing new spec or a new allocation of the old spec.

Now Ferrari will obviously find the benefits of replacing/updating their turbo's that regurarily outweighting the disadvantages of the penalties. That's a whole other discussion and there is merit to it. Ferrari could for instance swallow the penalty at circuits where they realise during practice they are too far off Mercedes, in the meanwhile enjoying a better upgrade plan.
#AeroFrodo

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dren
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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Oh turbo, you know these are fan fueled threads. :wink:
Honda!

Mandrake
Mandrake
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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GPR-A wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:44 pm
Mandrake wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:35 pm
So overall the Ferrari again was the faster car, just
Well, using the logic of the Ferrari fans from the past races, "The faster car won today" and that was not Ferrari. Rest everything is just excuses.

Honestly speaking, how was Ferrari faster? Bottas made a good start, kept getting away at the start and he was MAINTAINING the gap of 5 seconds in the first stint. Everytime Vettel put a faster lap, Bottas responded. That doesn't suggest to me that it was Ferrari who was faster. They ONLY SEEMED FASTER at the end because of Vettel pitting later and having 7 laps fresher set of tyres and Bottas made mistake and screwed up his tyres with a massive flat spot. With 8 MPH slower throughout the race on speed traps and doing nothing extraordinary in S2 or S3 in the first stint when situation was same for both cars while carrying race load, if someone says Ferrari was faster, that means, you did not pay attention to details.
I said overall the faster car. On the Ultrasofts Vettel was not able to extract the same performance from the tires as Bottas was, but he held so much more tire life in it. After Bottas Pitstop Vettel was able to stay on Bottas pace with the old tires. And then when he switched to the super softs he just flew towards Bottas. Bottas on the other hand was pushing to stay ahead as indicated by his error and the tension in his radio call. Had Vettel passed Bottas, he would have sailed away. This for me indicates that the Ferrari was the faster car on both tires combined - all down to the tire performance of course with the Ferrari making much better use of them....

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AnthonyG
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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Anyone else noticed how Bottas's steering wheel was shaking as soon as he let go? Must have been a very stressful situation for him.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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Mandrake wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 1:03 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:44 pm
Mandrake wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:35 pm
So overall the Ferrari again was the faster car, just
Well, using the logic of the Ferrari fans from the past races, "The faster car won today" and that was not Ferrari. Rest everything is just excuses.

Honestly speaking, how was Ferrari faster? Bottas made a good start, kept getting away at the start and he was MAINTAINING the gap of 5 seconds in the first stint. Everytime Vettel put a faster lap, Bottas responded. That doesn't suggest to me that it was Ferrari who was faster. They ONLY SEEMED FASTER at the end because of Vettel pitting later and having 7 laps fresher set of tyres and Bottas made mistake and screwed up his tyres with a massive flat spot. With 8 MPH slower throughout the race on speed traps and doing nothing extraordinary in S2 or S3 in the first stint when situation was same for both cars while carrying race load, if someone says Ferrari was faster, that means, you did not pay attention to details.
I said overall the faster car. On the Ultrasofts Vettel was not able to extract the same performance from the tires as Bottas was, but he held so much more tire life in it. After Bottas Pitstop Vettel was able to stay on Bottas pace with the old tires. And then when he switched to the super softs he just flew towards Bottas. Bottas on the other hand was pushing to stay ahead as indicated by his error and the tension in his radio call. Had Vettel passed Bottas, he would have sailed away. This for me indicates that the Ferrari was the faster car on both tires combined - all down to the tire performance of course with the Ferrari making much better use of them....
Bottas pitted on lap 27 and here are the times that he was doing after pitting.

http://www.fia.com/file/56375/download?token=mEvXTTDr

27 P 1:43.462
28 1:58.224
29 1:38.171
30 1:38.208
31 1:38.160
32 1:38.704
33 1:39.169
34 1:38.426
35 1:37.978
36 1:38.041
37 1:37.856
38 1:39.193
39 1:38.493
40 1:38.473
41 1:38.776
42 1:38.754
43 1:38.197
44 1:38.236
45 1:37.815
46 1:37.794
47 1:37.793
48 1:37.576
49 1:37.367
50 1:37.742
51 1:37.980
52 1:38.871

And here are Vettel's laptimes.
27 1:39.334
28 1:39.192
29 1:38.828
30 1:38.291
31 1:38.347
32 1:38.306
33 1:38.553
34 P 1:43.112
35 1:58.663
36 1:37.699
37 1:37.565
38 1:38.214
39 1:37.692
40 1:38.067
41 1:38.431
42 1:38.683
43 1:38.217
44 1:38.735
45 1:37.630
46 1:37.373
47 1:37.897
48 1:37.329
49 1:37.312
50 1:37.493
51 1:37.832
52 1:38.728

After pitting, on lap 34, Vettel started doing high 1:37.xxx on fresh set of SS tyres and Bottas did 1:37.9xx on Lap 35 (on 8 lap old SS tyres). On lap 36, Bottas made a mistake and flat spotted his tyres and lost a second on that lap. Subsequently, he kept losing time behind back markers (Magnussen and Kvyat) and that was almost 7 to 8 tenths a lap. Once Bottas cleared the backmarkers by 45th lap, he started doing 1m37.xxx again. One second faster than what he was doing until 44th lap, which clearly shows how much he was losing behind the back markers. After that, Bottas was doing same time as what Vettel was doing, on much older and flat spotted tires.

So that is why, I don't believe Ferrari was faster. You know, devil is in the details. :)

evered7
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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That Vettel was just .6s behind Bottas on the finish line doesn't matter, after being 4.5s behind him post the pitstop. And that Vettel would have had to clear the same set of backmarkers as Bottas also doesn't come into account.

Anyway, Bottas won on the fastest car (as per the regular logic of both set of fans). Would be against a few of Mercs supporters claim that Bottas beat two faster cars for the race win. One has to choose one theory :)

Bill_Kar
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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-I've been watching lately full F1 seasons from late 90s.The situation is very similar overtaking-wise, you just need to be super-fast to overtake somebody.Only difference is back then they could stay very close to car in front but even .5 sec, slipstreaming wouldn't do anything.Just like DRS now is useless.

-I think that Vettel couldn't do anything.I've said it a lot of times, overcut is not going to work in terms of getting in front of the other car after your pit stop.So they just hoped that with much fresher rubber they would be able to overtake Bottas.But there was no hope, Mercedes were vastly superior in straights, there was no way to get in front.
There was only one way and that is the undercut.But to perform the undercut you need to be round about 1 sec, Vettel was 2.5s behind Bottas.

-Still I'm impressed by Ferrari's ability to maintain gap and not be much affected by turbulent air.But there must be some drawback.Maybe less aerodynamic efficiency?

-What Mercedes has done here is a real puzzle.They went for tyre management, setting the car more for Sunday, less lighting up rear tyres, narrower window of operation, more oversteer.
That helped them a lot in the first phase of the race where they carry more fuel but I wonder-why here?
Russia is slippery, tyres don't complain here.So why going for such a strategy in Russia?
Did that screwed Hamilton or was it just horrid setup?
Anyway, it seems to work better than previous race, and I think Merc's pace is going to be better in Spain than here.