2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

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turbof1
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post by turbof1 » Thu May 04, 2017 1:03 pm

Wass85 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 12:13 pm
I might get hate for this but in my honest opinion Hamilton has been very average so far this season.

Bottas is brand new to the team and has been very close in every qualifying session and is leading Hamilton in overall speed in qualifying.

Bottas finished on Hamilton's gearbox in Melbourne and I have a feeling he was told to hold station, that's why he was so miserable in his interviews.
I'll bite into this that although you really have to get more specific and factual with your arguments, it's worth a discussion.

First off, I don't agree Bottas is leading Hamilton in qualifying, just as much I would disagree with the notion Hamilton leads Bottas in the same regard. Hamilton and Bottas outqualified eachother twice respectively. That's based on simply looking at the qualifying table. I don't really see any other argument playing into this. Neither had technical issues during qualifying. That's equal.

Second, Bottas did finish in Hamilton's gearbox in Melbourne, but in the first half of the race Hamilton pulled away. So you'd have Hamilton clearly outpacing Bottas in the first half, and Bottas outpacing in the second half. Again I really do not see a clear argument why this means Bottas is better than Hamilton. I do see an argument they are generally seen very equal to one another.

Does that mean Hamilton is what you call "average" up to this point, aside generally comparing him with Bottas? Up to debate. His first 3 races were quite alright; it's the 4th race you could say "this is not the performance we expected from you".
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post by Schuttelberg » Thu May 04, 2017 1:10 pm

People call me old fashioned, but it would take a modern day god to explain to me how Sochi classifies as a F1 circuit! It's dull and absolutely characterless!!
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

Mandrake
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post by Mandrake » Thu May 04, 2017 1:15 pm

Schuttelberg wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 1:10 pm
People call me old fashioned, but it would take a modern day god to explain to me how Sochi classifies as a F1 circuit! It's dull and absolutely characterless!!
Imagine you are running Formula 1. Then imagine there is a certain Wladimir P. knocking at your door, accompanied by some grim looking gorrilas (2 of them with suitcases full of moneehh), asking you to kindly add his circuit to the calendar. I wonder what your decision would be ;)

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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post by turbof1 » Thu May 04, 2017 1:15 pm

Schuttelberg wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 1:10 pm
People call me old fashioned, but it would take a modern day god to explain to me how Sochi classifies as a F1 circuit! It's dull and absolutely characterless!!
Basically even an oval could classify as such as long as the safety features and paddock are up to standard. Now I hear you think: an oval, how unfamiliar to F1 is that? Well...

Image

I think Sochi has character, especially turn 4. And the close barriers atleast punish mistakes.
#AeroFrodo

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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post by Schuttelberg » Thu May 04, 2017 1:18 pm

Mandrake wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 1:15 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 1:10 pm
People call me old fashioned, but it would take a modern day god to explain to me how Sochi classifies as a F1 circuit! It's dull and absolutely characterless!!
Imagine you are running Formula 1. Then imagine there is a certain Wladimir P. knocking at your door, accompanied by some grim looking gorrilas (2 of them with suitcases full of moneehh), asking you to kindly add his circuit to the calendar. I wonder what your decision would be ;)
This is sport, not politics. In my humble opinion, to have Germany out of the calendar and Russia in it is borderline criminal!
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

Wass85
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post by Wass85 » Thu May 04, 2017 1:45 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 1:03 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 12:13 pm
I might get hate for this but in my honest opinion Hamilton has been very average so far this season.

Bottas is brand new to the team and has been very close in every qualifying session and is leading Hamilton in overall speed in qualifying.

Bottas finished on Hamilton's gearbox in Melbourne and I have a feeling he was told to hold station, that's why he was so miserable in his interviews.
I'll bite into this that although you really have to get more specific and factual with your arguments, it's worth a discussion.

First off, I don't agree Bottas is leading Hamilton in qualifying, just as much I would disagree with the notion Hamilton leads Bottas in the same regard. Hamilton and Bottas outqualified eachother twice respectively. That's based on simply looking at the qualifying table. I don't really see any other argument playing into this. Neither had technical issues during qualifying. That's equal.

Second, Bottas did finish in Hamilton's gearbox in Melbourne, but in the first half of the race Hamilton pulled away. So you'd have Hamilton clearly outpacing Bottas in the first half, and Bottas outpacing in the second half. Again I really do not see a clear argument why this means Bottas is better than Hamilton. I do see an argument they are generally seen very equal to one another.

Does that mean Hamilton is what you call "average" up to this point, aside generally comparing him with Bottas? Up to debate. His first 3 races were quite alright; it's the 4th race you could say "this is not the performance we expected from you".
It's a fact that if you look at the times Bottas on average is ahead in qualifying, that was a tonking in Sochi and that shows in their aggregate times.

My opinion is based on his performance relative to Bottas, I think he's been very average to say the least and if I'm being honest his performances have been poor this season on the whole barring China.

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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post by turbof1 » Thu May 04, 2017 2:55 pm

Wass85 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 1:45 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 1:03 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 12:13 pm
I might get hate for this but in my honest opinion Hamilton has been very average so far this season.

Bottas is brand new to the team and has been very close in every qualifying session and is leading Hamilton in overall speed in qualifying.

Bottas finished on Hamilton's gearbox in Melbourne and I have a feeling he was told to hold station, that's why he was so miserable in his interviews.
I'll bite into this that although you really have to get more specific and factual with your arguments, it's worth a discussion.

First off, I don't agree Bottas is leading Hamilton in qualifying, just as much I would disagree with the notion Hamilton leads Bottas in the same regard. Hamilton and Bottas outqualified eachother twice respectively. That's based on simply looking at the qualifying table. I don't really see any other argument playing into this. Neither had technical issues during qualifying. That's equal.

Second, Bottas did finish in Hamilton's gearbox in Melbourne, but in the first half of the race Hamilton pulled away. So you'd have Hamilton clearly outpacing Bottas in the first half, and Bottas outpacing in the second half. Again I really do not see a clear argument why this means Bottas is better than Hamilton. I do see an argument they are generally seen very equal to one another.

Does that mean Hamilton is what you call "average" up to this point, aside generally comparing him with Bottas? Up to debate. His first 3 races were quite alright; it's the 4th race you could say "this is not the performance we expected from you".
It's a fact that if you look at the times Bottas on average is ahead in qualifying, that was a tonking in Sochi and that shows in their aggregate times.

My opinion is based on his performance relative to Bottas, I think he's been very average to say the least and if I'm being honest his performances have been poor this season on the whole barring China.
That's not a fact indicating Bottas or Hamilton is better then the other. That's a number depending from circuit to circuit. Did you for instance adjusted the average to the circuit length and average speed? What if one driver got the better of the other driver in 3 out of 4 races (not the case here, just serving as example) but his 4th races was that abysmal it pulled his average below the other driver?

Next to the fact I am fairly certain you have not even calculated such an average. Else you would have posted that by now. So this what I am calling "pulling facts out of the arse".

If I for instance was just sticking to numbers without context, I'd say Hamilton still did better than Bottas as Hamilton has more WDC points. But that's not my opinion and neither am I going to lower the discussion to that level.

Now can you please bring it to yourself to bring some constructive arguments to the table? All your posts up to now have been "Hamilton is so average", even during testing when that made the least sense. The average opinion around finds that notion below average, and that includes average fans who are only fan of the average of all the drivers.

Your next posts will have none-constructive arguments edited out, without harming your opinion.
#AeroFrodo

dans79
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post by dans79 » Thu May 04, 2017 3:09 pm

This was fairly childish of Vettel (Giving Massa the bird),I'm not exactly sure what more he was expecting from Massa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JzAk6XyCrQ

1) Vettel wasn't close enough to get buy in turn 1
2) Massa Gave plenty of room on the outside of Turn 2
3) Massa went wide in turn 3 and Vettel got past.

Fulcrum
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Re: 2017 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, April 28-30

Post by Fulcrum » Thu May 04, 2017 3:22 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 2:55 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 1:45 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 1:03 pm

I'll bite into this that although you really have to get more specific and factual with your arguments, it's worth a discussion.

First off, I don't agree Bottas is leading Hamilton in qualifying, just as much I would disagree with the notion Hamilton leads Bottas in the same regard. Hamilton and Bottas outqualified eachother twice respectively. That's based on simply looking at the qualifying table. I don't really see any other argument playing into this. Neither had technical issues during qualifying. That's equal.

Second, Bottas did finish in Hamilton's gearbox in Melbourne, but in the first half of the race Hamilton pulled away. So you'd have Hamilton clearly outpacing Bottas in the first half, and Bottas outpacing in the second half. Again I really do not see a clear argument why this means Bottas is better than Hamilton. I do see an argument they are generally seen very equal to one another.

Does that mean Hamilton is what you call "average" up to this point, aside generally comparing him with Bottas? Up to debate. His first 3 races were quite alright; it's the 4th race you could say "this is not the performance we expected from you".
It's a fact that if you look at the times Bottas on average is ahead in qualifying, that was a tonking in Sochi and that shows in their aggregate times.

My opinion is based on his performance relative to Bottas, I think he's been very average to say the least and if I'm being honest his performances have been poor this season on the whole barring China.
That's not a fact indicating Bottas or Hamilton is better then the other. That's a number depending from circuit to circuit. Did you for instance adjusted the average to the circuit length and average speed? What if one driver got the better of the other driver in 3 out of 4 races (not the case here, just serving as example) but his 4th races was that abysmal it pulled his average below the other driver?

Next to the fact I am fairly certain you have not even calculated such an average. Else you would have posted that by now. So this what I am calling "pulling facts out of the arse".

If I for instance was just sticking to numbers without context, I'd say Hamilton still did better than Bottas as Hamilton has more WDC points. But that's not my opinion and neither am I going to lower the discussion to that level.

Now can you please bring it to yourself to bring some constructive arguments to the table? All your posts up to now have been "Hamilton is so average", even during testing when that made the least sense. The average opinion around finds that notion below average, and that includes average fans who are only fan of the average of all the drivers.

Your next posts will have none-constructive arguments edited out, without harming your opinion.
This isn't directed at turbof1

Reorder the races, and their outcomes. By way of example, Russia, Bahrain, Australia, China. What would we be saying then? Oh no, Bottas started strongly but he's fading away. How discordant is that opinion with the existing one? Very? Is this the case for multiple re-orderings? Then it's likely the opinions suffer from ordering bias.

Specifically, most recent information prejudicing prior data. Let's not forget, Bottas is the same driver that spun behind the safety car and finished 50 seconds behind his teammate in China.

Bottas has done very well to achieve his first victory, but if you had to pick one circuit as his odds on best chance of doing so this year, it would be Russia.

As I've already mentioned, Hamilton has actually started the year very well by his standards - as evidenced by data, not hearsay. The fact people are talking about Bottas positively shouldn't detract from Hamilton; Hamilton doesn't need to be 'bad' for Bottas to be 'good'.
Last edited by turbof1 on Thu May 04, 2017 3:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: nvm