2017 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 14-16 July

[Hammerfist]

Eh - that's a completely bizarre statement to make.

Lewis is saying that if you were to take copse flat out, you're going to be pushed further left on the track, and as a result, your entry to the Maggots/Beckets complex is going to be compromised, causing you to scrub off more speed in the subsequent left hander.

Did you actually read what he said? He didn't say any of the stuff you wrote. You actually wrote something along the lines of Unc1eM0nty, implying that Copse compromises Maggots/Beckets which are far disconected to it

There is absolutely no reason to not go as fast as possible on Copse as it will not compromise the rest of the lap. Unless the car doesn't have enough grip and, by going flatout, the car goes too wide exiting Copse. But then, that would just prove that the corner cannot be taken flat by the car and keep it within the track. The 2006 Renault and the 2010 Red Bull could go faster and even used less of the track, exiting Copse, which just shows how the 2017 cars lacked grip there.

What on earth makes you think that that distance is sufficient to treat the two as independent corners?

The two are taken as one sweeping movement, not as one corner, then a short straight, then another corner. There's no point at which the car is stable between the two.

Copse is the right-hander, after Woodcote, with min speed of 282kph. Then there is a considerable straight until Maggots, Beckets and Chapel(the left, right, left, right sequence corners).

Probably because (unlike you), we don't think we know better how to drive a formula 1 car on an optimal racing line than a multiple world driver's champion.

Drivers say BS all the time. In all honesty, I think Lewis just misexpressed(if such word exists) himself. He probably meant to say other stuff than what he did. Perhaps he meant that going flatout would make him go wide in the corner and have a worse exit over curbs and,then, he would reach Maggots, Becketts part with less speed.

What I think he meant to say is that when you take Copse flat out, you are in a higher gear, so the engine is out of its powerband, hence it's better to downshift so you have more torque for the exit.

[cooken]

Or maybe keeping the throttle flat and initiating the turn causes more understeer than a slight lift or gear drop to get an earlier, quicker direction change allowing to reduce steering input earlier.

I don't purport to be an expert on vehicle dynamics, racing lines and technique, but I can certainly appreciate that there's a lot to it than what you suggest. Stating things so matter of factly and using the word "atrocity" is a bit over the top no?

[Artur Craft]

Or maybe keeping the throttle flat and initiating the turn causes more understeer than a slight lift or gear drop to get an earlier, quicker direction change allowing to reduce steering input earlier.

I don't purport to be an expert on vehicle dynamics, racing lines and technique, but I can certainly appreciate that there's a lot to it than what you suggest. Stating things so matter of factly and using the word "atrocity" is a bit over the top no?

Well, it's obvious that Hamilton fans will just keep trying to save face for him on this one. Ok, here I'll go again in the hope to pass the point which is quite simple, actually. The car cannot take Copse flat in any case. It generally lacks the grip to do it. If it is what you said, then it simply lacks grip because it would undesteer if taken with full throttle. Btw, why would a car understeer under full throttle if only the rear wheels are driven?! Full throttle would take away some grip from the rear tyres and, if the corner demands more than the remaining traction available, make the car oversteer. Understeer would be related to something else, like steering under braking or relative lack of front downforce(CoP positioned too far behind.....). But that is not the point here.

No matter how you slice it, the car doesn't have the necessary grip to cope with Copse, going full throttle, and stay within the track limits, so a big lift is necessary in order to not compromise it's exit speed or avoid under/oversteer or something else.

Btw, it wasn't only Hamilton who incorrectly predicted 100% throttle there. I think Vettel and Ricciardo also did it.

[Artur Craft]

Just compare the B194 and the W08, the amount of sophistication is astonishing.... not just the chassis but also the almost direct Hybrid PU with (because of the K unit) zero throttle lag.

and yet, despite the far worse handling of the 1994 car, the Benetton had higher cornering speed than even the current 2017 cars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8k-D9-AZoo

That's what a light car, with a bigger diffuser, and a lower ride height(wooden plank was introduced a bit later) was capable of, even with much less sophistication (on it's chassis, aero and despite the narrower tyres) than a modern car. This response was just a brief and friendly OT, btw.

Ferrari have no issue with power, they have an issue with high speed downforce.

Ferrari had more downforce than Mercedes on Barcelona and even on Austria(RB, Mclaren all had more speed on Rindt corner), which was just a week ago. Also, I watched Kimi's fastest FP2 lap onboard and he was slightly faster, on Copse, than Hamilton on his pole. So there is no evidence that Ferrari lacks downforce to Mercedes, quite the contrary. Maybe Ferrari's apparent time loss on Beckets, Chapel(going by what you or some other member said, who I suppose was following the race with the timing app) was related with something else in the chassis, involving direction changes going quickly from left to right, and vice versa.

I do expect Mercedes to be the best car on Hungary too, given it's big dominance on Silverstone(wasn't thinking it before the last weekend, but Mercedes new upgrade changed my mind) but it's a very different track and Ferrari could be much stronger there because, unlike you, I believe Ferrari lacks power and not downforce, and that wouldn't matter much on the Hungaroring

[Andres125sx]

Not sure if it was Copse as when I joined the broadcast Hamilton was talking and didn´t hear the full comments, but I assumed he was talking about Copse.

He was saying the corner can be taken WOT, but it´s faster with a bit of lift. I guess it must be on the limit, something in the line of, if you take it WOT you´ll keep on track, but on a line so wide you´ll be loosing time due to drag and cornering friction decreasing your speed for longer than necessary, so the exit speed will be lower. With a bit of lift your entry speed is a bit lower, but that means your line can be tighter so you can apply throttle again sooner, and the exit speed will be faster. As usual in F1 that´s faster, let alone if there´s a fast section next as it´s the case

[Juzh]

He was saying the corner can be taken WOT, but it´s faster with a bit of lift. I guess it must be on the limit, something in the line of, if you take it WOT you´ll keep on track, but on a line so wide you´ll be loosing time due to drag and cornering friction decreasing your speed for longer than necessary, so the exit speed will be lower. With a bit of lift your entry speed is a bit lower, but that means your line can be tighter so you can apply throttle again sooner, and the exit speed will be faster. As usual in F1 that´s faster, let alone if there´s a fast section next as it´s the case


If taking the corner faster puts you out of line on the following corner then it might cost you more time then you gain from your +20kph in copse.

That's only because current cars don't have the grip to go flat on the ideal line in the first place which equals to this: CORNER IS NOT FLAT. Like wtf, is this so hard to understand? Someone explain to me why RB6 and 2006 renault (2 cars that we know off 100%) have been taking copse flat??

Also, kimi stayed in 8th gear on his FP2 lap, but wasn't flat as well and carried more speed than hamilton trough the corner, thus hamilton's comments are even more full of s...

[TAG]

...are we now so full of hatred that we question how F1 drivers drive their cars? get off of whatever pipe you guys are smoking, leave the derogatory comments you just sound foolish WOT, FLAT, WTF, he got pole and you're here arguing against minutia? Petty. Come now.

[Moose]

...are we now so full of hatred that we question how F1 drivers drive their cars? get off of whatever pipe you guys are smoking, leave the derogatory comments you just sound foolish WOT, FLAT, WTF, he got pole and you're here arguing against minutia? Petty. Come now.

But TAG, you don't understand - random haters on the internet have far more idea of how to drive Formula 1 cars than a multiple world champion does.

[justmoi]

...are we now so full of hatred that we question how F1 drivers drive their cars? get off of whatever pipe you guys are smoking, leave the derogatory comments you just sound foolish WOT, FLAT, WTF, he got pole and you're here arguing against minutia? Petty. Come now.

But TAG, you don't understand - random haters on the internet have far more idea of how to drive Formula 1 cars than a multiple world champion does.

I really find it amazing you know. The fact that people posting here know more about actual racing line and speed than the drivers themselves, including the one that has got pole four years running here or something like that. It really is amazing... the arrogance and delusion.

All it says really is about the posters on here.

I'll add I believe what Lewis was trying to say is Copse CAN be taken flat out, but perhaps it's not ideal to if you're chasing the fastest time out of those series of corners. Now why is that so hard to digest? When did Lewis tell anyone that the 'ideal' racing line was flat out?

But i agree with TAG the whinings really are petty. He's so worried what they thought of his pole time. Or racing line. Grow up?

[komninosm]

Schumacher was black flagged (and lost all points all season) for less provable offense in 1997. It taints the championship...

Erm, I'm pretty sure Schumacher was trying to punt Villeneuve out of the race in order to win the championship. Vettel gave Hamilton a friendly nudge at safety-car speeds to say "f-you, buddy". The incidents are hardly comparable.

friendly nudge??

You can't reason with fanboys and haters. Reality has a bias for them lol
Villeneuve was able to complete the race too. Hamilton could have had unseen damage. It could have damaged breaking balance or steering. It could have damaged suspension and that can lower performance enough for a bad result and it could even break off during high speed breaking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5Pfrik ... nnel=DrX07
well not like this, but something less spectacular. The obvious fact is Schumacher got super black flagged for less obvious on purpose crashing.

[komninosm]

I'm sorry, perhaps you could do your own Google searches in future...

No reason to be rude.
I found a good vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Db_uT- ... l=FORMULA1
"2017 British Grand Prix | Best Onboards"
Vettel pushed both BOT and VER off track. He even hit VER, causing a collision and potentially fast-speed accident. He's becoming dangerous to the field with his red mists and FIA is not punishing him.
He should have been black flagged at Baku. Schumacher was black flagged (and lost all points all season) for less provable offense in 1997. It taints the championship...

Laugh all you like, but at least what Schumacher did was during the race and not a Safety Car. I'm no fan of Schumacher (I dislike him actually), but he could have claimed it was just a driving mistake/incident. It was definitely not as clear-cut.
At least he had the balls to apologize live afterwards. Vettel wasn't properly punished so he didn't even properly apologize obviously (only a fool would). I blame FIARRARI and the "championship battle at all costs" theme.
Schumacher live apology starts at 21:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xES7Afu ... iographyTV
Sure it was the last race and the Stewards who didn't punish him during the race weren't punished too and Ferrari wasn't punished either (though it could have), but at least it sent a message.

[komninosm]

I'm sorry, perhaps you could do your own Google searches in future...

No reason to be rude.

Then perhaps you should have said "thanks, I've seen that but was hoping for a different angle". Your post came across as dismissive and thus rude, hence my reply.

All I said was I already saw that vid. That's not dismissive. Maybe you have some issues with me and are prejudiced. I can't see how anyone would think that was rude.

[ChrisDanger]

Erm, I'm pretty sure Schumacher was trying to punt Villeneuve out of the race in order to win the championship. Vettel gave Hamilton a friendly nudge at safety-car speeds to say "f-you, buddy". The incidents are hardly comparable.

friendly nudge??

You can't reason with fanboys and haters. Reality has a bias for them lol
Villeneuve was able to complete the race too. Hamilton could have had unseen damage. It could have damaged breaking balance or steering. It could have damaged suspension and that can lower performance enough for a bad result and it could even break off during high speed breaking...

Um, firstly I'm not a fanboy or hater. Accusing me of such just devalues the discussion by relegating the point I'm making to nothing more than biased speculation, which is great for you because you can then dismiss it without needing to examine it in any great detail. I think it's actually because I don't care about the incident that I can see it more objectively.

But if you compare the two incidents, Schumacher deliberately tried to punt Villeneuve out the race, and this was very clear at the time. The fact that Villeneuve carried on is irrelevant. He sustained damage which may have caused him to lose the lead to both McLarens. Now Vettel bumped Hamilton with no intention to result in any advantage. Maybe it wasn't "friendly", but it was not malicious, like the Schumacher-Villeneuve incident clearly was. Regarding your point that Hamilton may have suffered damage, well there was no mention of this, which there surely would have been if it had happened. But anyway, the main point is in the intention, which I'm saying makes the incidents incomparable.

I come to this conclusion via my own unbiased and thoughtful analysis. You don't have to agree with me, but don't then thoughtlessly accuse me of being a fanboy or hater. This would then just make me realise that you're twisting reality to support your own beliefs, which is something we all do naturally by the way, but that doesn't mean we can't strive not to.

[Treble]

...are we now so full of hatred that we question how F1 drivers drive their cars? get off of whatever pipe you guys are smoking, leave the derogatory comments you just sound foolish WOT, FLAT, WTF, he got pole and you're here arguing against minutia? Petty. Come now.

But TAG, you don't understand - random haters on the internet have far more idea of how to drive Formula 1 cars than a multiple world champion does.

I really find it amazing you know. The fact that people posting here know more about actual racing line and speed than the drivers themselves, including the one that has got pole four years running here or something like that. It really is amazing... the arrogance and delusion.

All it says really is about the posters on here.

I'll add I believe what Lewis was trying to say is Copse CAN be taken flat out, but perhaps it's not ideal to if you're chasing the fastest time out of those series of corners. Now why is that so hard to digest? When did Lewis tell anyone that the 'ideal' racing line was flat out?

But i agree with TAG the whinings really are petty. He's so worried what they thought of his pole time. Or racing line. Grow up?

Take it easy guys, noone is trying to diminish Hamilton. If you don't agree with the statement you can discuss it without accusing anybody of fanboism. Nobody here is diminishing your favourite driver...

[justmoi]

But TAG, you don't understand - random haters on the internet have far more idea of how to drive Formula 1 cars than a multiple world champion does.

I really find it amazing you know. The fact that people posting here know more about actual racing line and speed than the drivers themselves, including the one that has got pole four years running here or something like that. It really is amazing... the arrogance and delusion.

All it says really is about the posters on here.

I'll add I believe what Lewis was trying to say is Copse CAN be taken flat out, but perhaps it's not ideal to if you're chasing the fastest time out of those series of corners. Now why is that so hard to digest? When did Lewis tell anyone that the 'ideal' racing line was flat out?

But i agree with TAG the whinings really are petty. He's so worried what they thought of his pole time. Or racing line. Grow up?

Take it easy guys, noone is trying to diminish Hamilton. If you don't agree with the statement you can discuss it without accusing anybody of fanboism. Nobody here is diminishing your favourite driver...

LOL Is this an attempt at supposedly common sense intervention? It's a fail sorry. Your post is anything but. Who is my favorite driver? And I do wonder who is yours by the way? Also you'll see I didn't mention fanboyism.

Honestly I cannot even be bothered right now to address your poorly veiled response. The point of my post remains very clear, true and unbiased ie it is shocking that posters here claim to know more about how to drive a lap quickest and proper racing lines than formula one drivers, not least the one who has got pole several times here. Surprising I need to say that again.

The message is straight forward. If you are as unbiased as your post pretends to be, maybe you should have just kept quiet?

Oh and saying that the pole sitter for several years here is talking --- about corners here IS a rather petty and pathetic though useless way of trying to diminish him actually. I'm sure he's not reading this to find out or care. And I would say the same for any driver on the grid.

Maybe you missed the original post and just jumped straight in to give your own 'unbias'...