2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Phil » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:40 am

I am not that pessimistic. Ferrari have been rather close on most tracks. They are also yet to bring Spec 4 of their engine, so there is still the chance they may find an upgrade where Mercedes is now limited, already having brought theirs.

I'm very curious though if there is a potential penalty on the horizon for Ferrari and their turbo or if they will re-use the ones they took out earlier in the season...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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iotar__
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by iotar__ » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:22 am

ringo wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:21 pm
I think merc are downplaying their learning and improving the car. They are making it look like they cant do anything about this track and throw in the towel to ferrari and redbull. I dont believe it one minute. They are coming here to win.
How so? Their diligent work on Monaco set up resulted in losing badly to Ferrari in Hungary, drivers and race problems made it look more competitive than it was. Monza was a combination of engine, harder tyres (race) and (wet) Q.

Singapore may differ from Hun because of faux-street circuit lay out, night race tyre dynamic and possibility of a SC. In Hun anything but a Ferrari win would have been a shock here they are the favourites but Merc, RB have a chance to be close.
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:52 pm
I am sticking my head out. Lewis for pole by a country mile.
WaikeCU wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:56 pm
I personally think Hamilton will be mighty here.
That's the usual prediction here before every race which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't :roll: . I'll wait. I wonder why no one's bringing past races this time:
1 Nico Rosberg 1:42.584
2 Daniel Ricciardo 1:43.115
3 Lewis Hamilton 1:43.288 - 0,704 doesn't look mighty on a street circuit and neither did Monaco in '17, '16 and other years.

Chene_Mostert
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Chene_Mostert » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:31 am

WaikeCU wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:56 pm
I personally think Hamilton will be mighty here. It all comes down to how the Merc behaves around this circuit. Lewis is great at street courses and if this isn't the best car suited for this track, the driver still can make the difference and with the momentum he has after Spa and Monza, he could be in a different zone. In 2009 the Mclaren certainely wasn't the best car around, but he did put that car on pole in Singapore with a mighty lap and also won the race as well. It all remains to be seen on how the Merc has overcome it's issues early in the season.

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garyjpaterson
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by garyjpaterson » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:40 am

What are the chances of Merc - if after Friday they see they really are going to struggle for a good result (ie clearly behind Ferrari and RB) - decide to take engine penalties and fit new PUs that allows them to have 5 in the pool for the rest of the season?

Is this a silly idea or not? Obviously if they find they can be competitive, its best saving that for a track you can pass more easily, but if it looks like their looking at small points anyway, take the chance?

Chene_Mostert
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Chene_Mostert » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:03 pm

garyjpaterson wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:40 am
What are the chances of Merc - if after Friday they see they really are going to struggle for a good result (ie clearly behind Ferrari and RB) - decide to take engine penalties and fit new PUs that allows them to have 5 in the pool for the rest of the season?

Is this a silly idea or not? Obviously if they find they can be competitive, its best saving that for a track you can pass more easily, but if it looks like their looking at small points anyway, take the chance?
There is NO such thing as a silly idea.
We’re all human and we will suffer from mental blocks. But the key to overcoming a mental block is to quit worrying about being right and losing your inhibitions.
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GPR-A
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by GPR-A » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:11 pm

I could find this article from 2015, where Paddy Lowe, the then Technical Director explains their philosophy.

MERCEDES CAR NOT DESIGNED FOR SINGAPORE CLAIMS LOWE
“The aero characteristics of our car is for efficiency,” Lowe said, “so that’s maximum downforce with as little drag as possible. That is why we are so strong on circuits like Suzuka and Spa.

“And that’s why we find tracks where only maximum downforce is required more difficult,” he added, explaining that because Red Bull for instance is down on power, they have a completely different approach to car design.

Lowe said Mercedes’ designers divide the 19 current circuits into 3 categories: street tracks Monaco and Singapore, high-speed tracks Spa and Monza, and ‘the rest’.

“We have optimised our car for the rest,” he revealed, adding that the second priority is the fastest tracks.
It's the DNA of the car design philosophy that makes the W0<> breed struggle on street circuits. Because there was never a big threat in 2014 and 2016, they were unchallenged. Somehow their struggles compounded in 2015 as they also made some setup mistakes.

Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Big Mangalhit » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:10 pm

garyjpaterson wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:40 am
What are the chances of Merc - if after Friday they see they really are going to struggle for a good result (ie clearly behind Ferrari and RB) - decide to take engine penalties and fit new PUs that allows them to have 5 in the pool for the rest of the season?

Is this a silly idea or not? Obviously if they find they can be competitive, its best saving that for a track you can pass more easily, but if it looks like their looking at small points anyway, take the chance?
Very risky they could well end up out of the points starting last. The struggle to overtake the entire field in Singapure plus the danger of collision doing so. They could luck out with a safety car but waaaay yo risky for a team than hardly has reliable engine problems anyway.

f1316
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by f1316 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:16 pm

GPR-A wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:11 pm
I could find this article from 2015, where Paddy Lowe, the then Technical Director explains their philosophy.

MERCEDES CAR NOT DESIGNED FOR SINGAPORE CLAIMS LOWE
“The aero characteristics of our car is for efficiency,” Lowe said, “so that’s maximum downforce with as little drag as possible. That is why we are so strong on circuits like Suzuka and Spa.

“And that’s why we find tracks where only maximum downforce is required more difficult,” he added, explaining that because Red Bull for instance is down on power, they have a completely different approach to car design.

Lowe said Mercedes’ designers divide the 19 current circuits into 3 categories: street tracks Monaco and Singapore, high-speed tracks Spa and Monza, and ‘the rest’.

“We have optimised our car for the rest,” he revealed, adding that the second priority is the fastest tracks.
It's the DNA of the car design philosophy that makes the W0<> breed struggle on street circuits. Because there was never a big threat in 2014 and 2016, they were unchallenged. Somehow their struggles compounded in 2015 as they also made some setup mistakes.
Yes, and Lowe last year also talked about how the brakes were also not designed to pushed throughout a race of this kind (given the fact that the tyres couldn't be pushed anyway), hence braking issues they had at Singapore.

I brought it up at the time, but I wonder if that philosophy's changed at all this year, given the fact that tyres do survive a lot more pushing now.

Phil
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Phil » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:19 pm

garyjpaterson wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:40 am
What are the chances of Merc - if after Friday they see they really are going to struggle for a good result (ie clearly behind Ferrari and RB) - decide to take engine penalties and fit new PUs that allows them to have 5 in the pool for the rest of the season?

Is this a silly idea or not? Obviously if they find they can be competitive, its best saving that for a track you can pass more easily, but if it looks like their looking at small points anyway, take the chance?
Slim, probably. I think even if Mercedes ends up having a really bad day at Singapore, the chance is still they will be comfortably in at least 5th and 6th position (behind RedBull and Ferrari). That would mean they would still gain 18 points in the WCC.

Assuming Lewis is 5th (10 points) and Vettel first (25 points), they'd concede 15 points with their leading driver. Start from the back of the grid and they'd be faced with zero points as Singapore is difficult to overtake. I'd be also rather doubtful if an extra PU would have much benefit. Not sure if Lewis was allowed to use "more power" as a result of him taking penalties for an extra engine after Spa (well one of them blew up, sadly), but I don't think the performance gap was that big relative to Nico [Rosberg].

It's an interesting point though, especially regarding next year when 3 PUs will be the limit. The less PUs you can use, the more using an extra one and incurring potential grid penalties might be beneficial?


A race is ~300km, so a weekend might add up to 750km with P1, P2, P3, QF and the race? (Estimating)
So ~750km per race weekend.

To illustrate:
5 PUs = each PU covers 4 race weekends. 3000km per PU (20 races)
4 PUs = each PU covers 5 race weekends. 3750km per PU (20 races)
3 PUs = each PU covers 7 race weekends. 5250km per PU (21 races)

Going from 5 to 3 is quite an increase in mileage. Only the engine manufacturers know how much more performance could be extracted by using an extra power unit for less mileage...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Gothrek
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Gothrek » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:35 pm

This is one of Vettels best circuits. I hope Mercedes is not too strong here. So that we can forget the Monza dominance.

Bill_Kar
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Bill_Kar » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:34 pm

A podium place would be perfect for LH. My prediction
1.Vettel
2.Red Bull
3.Hamilton
4.Red Bull
5.Bottas

PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:35 pm

iotar__ wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:22 am

How so? Their diligent work on Monaco set up resulted in losing badly to Ferrari in Hungary, drivers and race problems made it look more competitive than it was. Monza was a combination of engine, harder tyres (race) and (wet) Q.

Singapore may differ from Hun because of faux-street circuit lay out, night race tyre dynamic and possibility of a SC. In Hun anything but a Ferrari win would have been a shock here they are the favourites but Merc, RB have a chance to be close.
That's the usual prediction here before every race which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't :roll: . I'll wait. I wonder why no one's bringing past races this time:
1 Nico Rosberg 1:42.584
2 Daniel Ricciardo 1:43.115
3 Lewis Hamilton 1:43.288 - 0,704 doesn't look mighty on a street circuit and neither did Monaco in '17, '16 and other years.
He didn't get to practice for qualifying...
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

TAG
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by TAG » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:38 pm

Bill_Kar wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:34 pm
A podium place would be perfect for LH. My prediction
1.Vettel
2.Red Bull
3.Hamilton
4.Red Bull
5.Bottas
That's just like I'm planning to pick them for my fantasy leagues... Unless there's an unexpected need for a component replacement. Vettel did complain after Monza about something being wrong with the car and him not giving it his all after that. No way to tell if that was merely to save face or if there's something really going on, we'll have to wait on that.

I'm also tipping Ricciardo over Verstappen for this one as the Red Bulls go.
Countdown to 91: 9 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Zynerji
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Zynerji » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:21 am

I think Ferrari's problem is just green, cool and washed tracks.

If it's hot and lots of rubber is laid down, they are mighty. When it rains overnight, or the track cools, their tyres lose the plot.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:30 am

Any guesses on how quick these cars will go here? Lots a corners to make time up.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne