Aquaplaning

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Medingen
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Joined: 04 Sep 2017, 17:13

Aquaplaning

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TV says it is because of the legality plank not tires- I doubt that. When Stroll come off track one could only see tire tracks in the sand - not a plank making any marks. That indicates there is much space - what is your take?

Dazed1
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Joined: 20 Mar 2016, 18:53

Re: Aquaplaning

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Medingen wrote:
07 Oct 2017, 02:04
TV says it is because of the legality plank not tires- I doubt that. When Stroll come off track one could only see tire tracks in the sand - not a plank making any marks. That indicates there is much space - what is your take?
Yes, I heard those comments. No matter how much water those FWs can "pump" there is still a large footprint of rubber "trying" to find the surface and it will eventually lose contact if the water is deep enough. I think that would happen on a much thinner layer of water than the "plank" would make it hydroplane on. (If ever?) IMHO

rjsa
51
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: Aquaplaning

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I agree. I have listend to it being carefully explained by Burti in BR tv more than once.

Medingen
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Joined: 04 Sep 2017, 17:13

Re: Aquaplaning

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... I am only an engineer - studied physics - working with the racing tire industry- but what do I know? Thank you for letting me know I am not the only one believing this was “fake news” :)

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DiogoBrand
73
Joined: 14 May 2015, 19:02
Location: Brazil

Re: Aquaplaning

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Anyway I think it's Pirelli's fault. If it's the floor of the car that's aquaplaning, then increase the diameter of the tyre. If it's the tyres, make a proper wet tyre FFS. It's very frustrating that since Pirelli is in F1, every time we have heavy rain, instead of expecting an exciting race, we can expect a safety car and a red flag.

rjsa
51
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: Aquaplaning

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Medingen wrote:
07 Oct 2017, 17:23
... I am only an engineer - studied physics - working with the racing tire industry- but what do I know? Thank you for letting me know I am not the only one believing this was “fake news” :)
I'm a Naval architect. An engineer. Did tons of fluid dynamics. Ship model basin operation too.

The guy I quoted, who I know personally, a former F1 driver.

So I disagree with you and passive aggressiveness & claimed credentials won't change my mind.


rjsa
51
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: Aquaplaning

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DiogoBrand wrote:
07 Oct 2017, 21:08
Anyway I think it's Pirelli's fault. If it's the floor of the car that's aquaplaning, then increase the diameter of the tyre. If it's the tyres, make a proper wet tyre FFS. It's very frustrating that since Pirelli is in F1, every time we have heavy rain, instead of expecting an exciting race, we can expect a safety car and a red flag.
Actually the wet tyres are bigger, as per rules. It's just not enough. The guilty party is FIA and the parc ferme. If teams could just fix hide height it wouldn't be so bad.

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henry
324
Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: Aquaplaning

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The rules specify that wet tyres may be max 680mm dia vs 670 for dry. So it is possible, but not prescribed, that the unloaded radius of a wet tyre is 5mm greater than a dry.

But what happens under load? Do they have the same stiffness? If wet tyres are less stiff then the 5mm would soon disappear. Stiffness will be affected by construction and inflation pressures. Does anyone know how they vary?

So at speed the plank may or may not be higher or lower. I don't know which.

I do know that from around 240kph up they rub the plank along the ground, zero clearance. if you deflect the t-tray 5mm at the point of contact it must resist with minimum 4000N. The leading edge of the plank is chamfered, up to 8mm at 30°.

So if the leading edge of the plank encounters standing water it will ride up on it like a hydrofoil. Every mm it is raised will reduce the load on the front wheels by around 800N. My estimate is that the load on the front axle at that speed is around 8000N. So 8mm would just about reduce the front axle load to zero. Aquaplaning.

8mm is quite deep water, but as well as the static water on the track the tyres have been carefully engineered to throw water at the front of the plank.

I don't know whether the plank is the sole problem for running on inundated tracks but I think it is quite feasible that it contributes.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Medingen
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Joined: 04 Sep 2017, 17:13

Re: Aquaplaning

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Hi rjsi - I am sorry for my error. I misinterpreted “I agree “ from you as agreeing with me. My last message was more ment as a joke - please don’t interpret too much into it :)
That the “plank” may be an issue was not my question. However, side shots showed pretty much space while on the road and - as I said before - plowing through the gravel did not leave a mark from the plank. That was the objective observation I wanted to bring up - trying to understand the remarks being made on TV (and yes, it is helpful to me to know what background someone has in the topic of relevance- as it gives credence - but I agree - that alone means nothing - that is why I requested feedback in the first place)

Dazed1
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Joined: 20 Mar 2016, 18:53

Re: Aquaplaning

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henry wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 12:00
The rules specify that wet tyres may be max 680mm dia vs 670 for dry. So it is possible, but not prescribed, that the unloaded radius of a wet tyre is 5mm greater than a dry.

But what happens under load? Do they have the same stiffness? If wet tyres are less stiff then the 5mm would soon disappear. Stiffness will be affected by construction and inflation pressures. Does anyone know how they vary?

So at speed the plank may or may not be higher or lower. I don't know which.

I do know that from around 240kph up they rub the plank along the ground, zero clearance. if you deflect the t-tray 5mm at the point of contact it must resist with minimum 4000N. The leading edge of the plank is chamfered, up to 8mm at 30°.

So if the leading edge of the plank encounters standing water it will ride up on it like a hydrofoil. Every mm it is raised will reduce the load on the front wheels by around 800N. My estimate is that the load on the front axle at that speed is around 8000N. So 8mm would just about reduce the front axle load to zero. Aquaplaning.

8mm is quite deep water, but as well as the static water on the track the tyres have been carefully engineered to throw water at the front of the plank.

I don't know whether the plank is the sole problem for running on inundated tracks but I think it is quite feasible that it contributes.
So then what is the total area of the front of the plank that encounters water compared to the total area of the tread of the two front tires? I assume the tire patch would be a greater area, and I assume if the tires start rising on the water, the plank would rise along with them. It is just hard for me to believe the plank is the culprit.

Medingen
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Joined: 04 Sep 2017, 17:13

Re: Aquaplaning

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... and if it is the plank - as a safety critical item, one would think that the FIA would force them to adjust so that the car may not “mono ski” on the track?!

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henry
324
Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: Aquaplaning

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Dazed1 wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 17:11
henry wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 12:00
The rules specify that wet tyres may be max 680mm dia vs 670 for dry. So it is possible, but not prescribed, that the unloaded radius of a wet tyre is 5mm greater than a dry.

But what happens under load? Do they have the same stiffness? If wet tyres are less stiff then the 5mm would soon disappear. Stiffness will be affected by construction and inflation pressures. Does anyone know how they vary?

So at speed the plank may or may not be higher or lower. I don't know which.

I do know that from around 240kph up they rub the plank along the ground, zero clearance. if you deflect the t-tray 5mm at the point of contact it must resist with minimum 4000N. The leading edge of the plank is chamfered, up to 8mm at 30°.

So if the leading edge of the plank encounters standing water it will ride up on it like a hydrofoil. Every mm it is raised will reduce the load on the front wheels by around 800N. My estimate is that the load on the front axle at that speed is around 8000N. So 8mm would just about reduce the front axle load to zero. Aquaplaning.

8mm is quite deep water, but as well as the static water on the track the tyres have been carefully engineered to throw water at the front of the plank.

I don't know whether the plank is the sole problem for running on inundated tracks but I think it is quite feasible that it contributes.
So then what is the total area of the front of the plank that encounters water compared to the total area of the tread of the two front tires? I assume the tire patch would be a greater area, and I assume if the tires start rising on the water, the plank would rise along with them. It is just hard for me to believe the plank is the culprit.
The tyres and the plank are potentially very different in their interaction with the standing water.

The plank is 300 mm wide. The whole of that profile encounters the water and the vast majority of the water has to go between the road and the plank. Only at the edges can it go sideways. The area is small, 300 wide by 15 long, but the water pressure is potentially high.

The front tyres are each between 365 and 380 wide. As slicks their width is 250% of the plank width and so would be much more likely to contribute to aquaplaning, since like the plank water is less likely to be able to go round rather than under the surface.

Rain tyres however are very different. The individual tread blocks are designed with voids around them so the individual block, perhaps 20 - 30mm wide, can squeeze the water into the void and prevent it going between the tyre and the road. So whilst their aggregate area is much greater than the nose of the plank the effect of the water will be much less. The tyres rely on the downforce to provide the load on the individual tyre block so they can do the work of squeezing the water into the tread voids.

You raise a good point about the interaction between the tyre and the plank. However I think it may work the other way round. As the plank rides up on the water it will lower the load on the tyres and so reduce their ability to squeeze the water out. So the plank can make the tyres more susceptible to aquaplaning.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Andres125sx
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Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Aquaplaning

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How easy/difficult is to raise ride height on a F1 car?

If we assume a rule change to allow it, it may be done on a pitstop even if it´s slow?

Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Aquaplaning

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Once the race starts you can change the ride height if you wish. I would think it's a fairly slow process in the context of a race.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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SteveRacer
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Joined: 20 Mar 2014, 01:13

Re: Aquaplaning

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Currently it is a slow process to alter the ride height. If the teams deemed it necessary to change during a race i'm sure it would be done so fast we would hardly notice!

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