2017 United States Grand Prix - COTA, 20-22 October

[NathanOlder]

Kimi did move, but unfortunately for Max left room for max to stay on track so you can't blame kimi for pushing Max off.

[Sieper]

I think you can, but Kimi veered back, that is what gave Max the Room to return to track, which he conveniently to him didn't do but indeed should have done to give the stewards no chance to penalize him. Now he made himself vulnerable for the punishment.

[NathanOlder]

I think you can, but Kimi veered back, that is what gave Max the Room to return to track, which he conveniently to him didn't do but indeed should have done to give the stewards no chance to penalize him. Now he made himself vulnerable for the punishment.

https://youtu.be/-S51FaTm7Cw

1min 3 seconds in this video is where kimi went back to the left. There was always room for max. never did he HAVE to take to the apex/grass

[KeiKo403]

ok....so I'm here banging on about the rules thinking they're clear. However, they really aren't.

Bear with me and try to follow my line of thought, it's a literal interpretation of what is written, maybe the rules are just that F'd up that this confusion has occurred.

So, FIA report states breach of article 27.3.
https://www.fia.com/file/62633/download?token=mVcZM3UY

27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not
deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part
of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race
director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he
gained by leaving the track.

Look at the bold parts. So even if a car is forced off the track it can't take the position because when rejoining you can't have gained a lasting advantage?

I'm not changing my stance on it here, I'm merely pointing out that upon closer inspection of that rule it's not clear if the 2nd bold part still applies if you've left the track for a justifiable reason or not.

However, only Max's leaving of the track was for what could be argued to be a "justifiable reason", no body else could have the same argument.

[Just_a_fan]

Cutting corners is not against the rules , yeah ok pal, have fun in la la land,

Explain to me why Max got penalised then.

As cutting a corner is worse than running wide. Thats just some common sense when it comes to motorsport. Now i have no idea how long you have been "just_a_fan" and maybe if you got yourself on to a track you would see the sense in what I say. This is why they put an ex driver in the stewards room and not just a fan.

Max got a penalty because he GAINED AN ADVANTAGE!

Been a fan of F1 for, ooh, 35 years. Is that enough?

I walked around Silverstone with the late Justin Wilson before the GP in 2003. He explained the track from a driver's perspective. Very educational. Very not "common sense" in places.

[KeiKo403]

Cutting corners is not against the rules , yeah ok pal, have fun in la la land,

Explain to me why Max got penalised then.

As cutting a corner is worse than running wide. Thats just some common sense when it comes to motorsport. Now i have no idea how long you have been "just_a_fan" and maybe if you got yourself on to a track you would see the sense in what I say. This is why they put an ex driver in the stewards room and not just a fan.

This bold part....what you say does make [common] sense!! I don't think anybody is arguing with you on that. Unfortunately the reality is that the rules do not make common sense. However, the drivers, stewards rulings and subsequent discussions have to be made against those rules. Not common sense, unfortunately.

[GrandAxe]

The drivers say they prefer to have grass or gravel to runoffs and ambiguity:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26767&start=75#p725761

[Restomaniac]

The drivers say they prefer to have grass or gravel to runoffs and ambiguity:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26767&start=75#p725761

Perez also agreed with Verstappen that they had received no guidance with regard to track limits.
That pretty much agrees with Hamilton's comments that sounded like Charlie had pretty much said 'Just do what you want'.

[ringo]

To me its a none issue. Hamilton lost a race at Spa over more dubious interpretation. These things happen and will continue to happen. It's just part of the sport. Max clearly broke the rules and i found the stewards consistent on that weekend. There is no example that demonstrated that they haven't been.

Anyhow speaking about Max, i think we failed to recognized the beauty and technicality of how he was overtaken by Hamilton. It's rarely we see Lewis fight these days because he is at the front. But that overtake was a sight to see and reminded me that he is also very elite when it come to passes and setting them up.
He basically forced Max to drive in a way to be overtaken without being able to put up much of a fight; and you could see that Max wasn't even aware that he was being setup by Hamilton.

[GrandAxe]

Max will study that move really hard for all he's worth. That was just sublime, like a master painter at work - moves like that that separate the greats from the rest.
It reminded me of Bahrain 2014. That race was the ultimate for masterful defence and plotting overtakes several corners ahead.

[Phil]

I think you can, but Kimi veered back, that is what gave Max the Room to return to track, which he conveniently to him didn't do <snip>

Have you guys ever been on a track or any situation where part of the car or entirely was off the track and on something with less grip, like paint, or a kerb and made any adjustment changes at high speeds when the car is already at the limit of sustaining traction?

For example (and I am not saying this would have happened identically at Austin), but take a look at Hamilton and Rosberg at Barcelona to see what can happen. Once you're off the track, partly or otherwise, sometimes it's best to stick it through and NOT change the trajectory of the car, unless absolutely necessary.

[Silent Storm]

To me its a none issue. Hamilton lost a race at Spa over more dubious interpretation. These things happen and will continue to happen. It's just part of the sport. Max clearly broke the rules and i found the stewards consistent on that weekend. There is no example that demonstrated that they haven't been.

Anyhow speaking about Max, i think we failed to recognized the beauty and technicality of how he was overtaken by Hamilton. It's rarely we see Lewis fight these days because he is at the front. But that overtake was a sight to see and reminded me that he is also very elite when it come to passes and setting them up.
He basically forced Max to drive in a way to be overtaken without being able to put up much of a fight; and you could see that Max wasn't even aware that he was being setup by Hamilton.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--X1W6h_gEc

When I saw that during the race, I thought Lewis showed him who the boss is, Max can be up there with the greats when it comes to outright speed, but a top level driver has race craft with speed. That was a classic from Hamilton IMO, Experience, patience and always a step ahead.

[Sieper]

Tire situation.

[PlatinumZealot]

Discussion stops at page 44. How fitting.

[drunkf1fan]

To me its a none issue. Hamilton lost a race at Spa over more dubious interpretation. These things happen and will continue to happen. It's just part of the sport. Max clearly broke the rules and i found the stewards consistent on that weekend. There is no example that demonstrated that they haven't been.

Anyhow speaking about Max, i think we failed to recognized the beauty and technicality of how he was overtaken by Hamilton. It's rarely we see Lewis fight these days because he is at the front. But that overtake was a sight to see and reminded me that he is also very elite when it come to passes and setting them up.
He basically forced Max to drive in a way to be overtaken without being able to put up much of a fight; and you could see that Max wasn't even aware that he was being setup by Hamilton.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--X1W6h_gEc

When I saw that during the race, I thought Lewis showed him who the boss is, Max can be up there with the greats when it comes to outright speed, but a top level driver has race craft with speed. That was a classic from Hamilton IMO, Experience, patience and always a step ahead.

I mean, he had the faster car due to fresher faster tires, I don't think Max defended as hard as he could and I don't think Hamilton purposefully setup the overtake for where he did it, he'd have happily gone down the inside or around the outside at the end of the straight but it just didn't work out like that.

The stupid thing was brundle trying to make a big thing about how drivers are scared of Max and said Hamilton stayed wide just steering clear of him.... even though Hamilton cut back under and made a much more risky pass. He could easily have waited till the start finish straight or the back straight for another lap and pass more easily as he'd be closer into either straight but he took him much earlier with far more risk involved. He wasn't staying clear of Max, he was taking a wide line so he could cut back and get him before the next corner.

A lot of people were agreeing with what Brundle said and it blows my mind how anyone can consider cutting back to take Max at that part of the track was Hamilton avoiding a risky move with Max because 'Max is dangerous'.