2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
User avatar
Andres125sx
352
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

turbof1 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:18 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:02 pm
Around here, and around FIA, but in the end all those researches have solved nothing.

You can have high DF as long as you control the turbulent wake, but never as high as the leading car in clean air. That´s the real problem I think we should accept
"all those researches" is making it sound like this topic has been around for decades :lol: . It has been somewhat researched properly in 2007/2008. It has been MUCH better researched the last months. The issue with turbulent flow, and I am spoiling an upcoming article a tiny bit here, is that it is VERY hard to accurately simulate virtually. To put it in the most simple terms: to do Direct Numerical Simulation realistically, which would yield the most accurate results, you'll need a quantum computer.

However, approximations under RANS and especially under LES can give good accurate results. Computional power keeps growing, and therefore will keep giving better and better results. Almost 10 years after the first serious attempt of reducing turbulent wake in F1, the changes next year and especially in 2021 will hit much closer to home due better, more accurate data.

Nobody is going to claim you can nullify it. Neither do you need to. Nowadays you need around a 2s pace advantage to overcome the turbulent wake penalty.

EDIT: I don't want to sound like turbulent flow itself has not been researched for decades. It is because it so value for teams to improve their aerodynamic platforms. The case of overtaking & turbulent flow however is something of the last decade, and even then only at a couple of periods.
Ok, now I´m eager to read that article :D

But I keep skeptical, it was Bhall who conviced me dirty air is low energy air so even if you understand the wake, you cannot get same DF than the car in front on clean air :P

But if possible, that will surely be the best solution

Bill_Kar
Bill_Kar
5
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:38 am

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:41 pm

But I keep skeptical, it was Bhall who conviced me dirty air is low energy air so even if you understand the wake, you cannot get same DF than the car in front on clean air :P
Is this the consensus?

carisi2k
carisi2k
33
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

clean up the following to reduce staff numbers and maybe in turn actually reduce costs and possibly increase the number of teams on the grid.

1. Get rid of their internet connections from track to base.
2. Make sure there is no staff at the factories during the Saturday and Sunday of a GP weekend.
3. Limit the amount of data engineers each team can have at the track
4. Reduce in season engine development and dyno testing.
5. End 24 hour operations at team and engine factories.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
91
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

carisi2k wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 am
...clean up the following to reduce staff numbers and maybe in turn actually reduce costs and possibly increase the number of teams on the grid...
Well.. as it happens.. for Canada, Red Bull had the 'VES entourage' scraped off.. & a more focussed Max - did go well..
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

User avatar
GPR-A duplicate2
167
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:00 am

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

carisi2k wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 am
clean up the following to reduce staff numbers and maybe in turn actually reduce costs and possibly increase the number of teams on the grid.

1. Get rid of their internet connections from track to base.
2. Make sure there is no staff at the factories during the Saturday and Sunday of a GP weekend.
3. Limit the amount of data engineers each team can have at the track
4. Reduce in season engine development and dyno testing.
5. End 24 hour operations at team and engine factories.
And make F1 the most outdated and stone age racing series on the planet.

zac510
zac510
39
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:58 am

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

carisi2k wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 am
clean up the following to reduce staff numbers and maybe in turn actually reduce costs and possibly increase the number of teams on the grid.

1. Get rid of their internet connections from track to base.
2. Make sure there is no staff at the factories during the Saturday and Sunday of a GP weekend.
3. Limit the amount of data engineers each team can have at the track
4. Reduce in season engine development and dyno testing.
5. End 24 hour operations at team and engine factories.
After all that, if there is still a boring processional race what will you do?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
91
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

GPR-A wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:42 am
carisi2k wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 am
clean up the following to reduce staff numbers and maybe in turn actually reduce costs and possibly increase the number of teams on the grid.

1. Get rid of their internet connections from track to base.
2. Make sure there is no staff at the factories during the Saturday and Sunday of a GP weekend.
3. Limit the amount of data engineers each team can have at the track
4. Reduce in season engine development and dyno testing.
5. End 24 hour operations at team and engine factories.
And make F1 the most outdated and stone age racing series on the planet.



Try & be serious for once, GPR-A.. as if..

Since.. Indy cars - have long-since had that particular title - well wrapped up..

Image


Although.. if the F1 promoters.. can get hold of the Slag bros, they could be on to a neolithic winner..

Image
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

Sevach
Sevach
871
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:00 pm

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

Image

A more accurate nomenclature :mrgreen:

BwajSF
BwajSF
5
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:33 am

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

Sevach wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:52 am
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dff5kQuW0AIp14c.jpg

A more accurate nomenclature :mrgreen:
Hahaha Thats Pretty Accurate.. :)

User avatar
Andres125sx
352
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

Bill_Kar wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:59 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:41 pm

But I keep skeptical, it was Bhall who conviced me dirty air is low energy air so even if you understand the wake, you cannot get same DF than the car in front on clean air :P
Is this the consensus?
Consensus? If F1? You must be kidding :mrgreen:

That´s what people with some aero knownledge told me, and it seems perfectly logical to me

User avatar
iotar__
7
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:31 am

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:24 am
No.. check NASCAR for example.. where at high speed.. closely 'drafting' in the slipstream wake of a car in front..
is a given method of getting in position for an overtaking move.. or de-stabilizing the lead car's control..

The massive multi-vortex wake of current F1 aero.. almost seems predicated to prevent this.. odd really, aint it..
Why didn't this discussion take place when pushing 100%, tyres lasting forever, quickest cars evah, one-stop eldorado of pure racing was designed, announced or introduced? It takes one poor race by media darling to fake care and pretend to seek solutions to the perfect world you co-created long time ago. About Pirelli: they delivered what they were asked for - the end of discussion.

- Lack of competitiveness between teams and drivers
- drivers choices especially at the top but also marketing stunts (headlines) of young driver programs, giant pay drivers and consequences to lower racing series (WSbR,F2)
- openly cheating in favour of specific teams and drivers FIA
- teams and drivers driving in circles in competitive no man's land bubbles,
- team orders and seasons decided by the likes of Wolff and Marchionne before they start
are 10 times bigger problems of current F1 than any vortex in the universe.

Who's going to use super DRS next season and where? Raikkonen against Vettel? Bottas against Hamilton? Mob, media, corporations and sponsors (Tag engines #-o ) don't need any racing either. They prefer paper wins, manufactured results and sponsored, dishonest reporting.

carisi2k
carisi2k
33
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

zac510 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:24 am
carisi2k wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 am
clean up the following to reduce staff numbers and maybe in turn actually reduce costs and possibly increase the number of teams on the grid.

1. Get rid of their internet connections from track to base.
2. Make sure there is no staff at the factories during the Saturday and Sunday of a GP weekend.
3. Limit the amount of data engineers each team can have at the track
4. Reduce in season engine development and dyno testing.
5. End 24 hour operations at team and engine factories.
After all that, if there is still a boring processional race what will you do?
As I mentioned this was more for reduced costs rather then improved racing. Improved racing will come from reducing the aero and increasing the mechanical grip and so the new front wings should be quite good in moving the air over the tyre instead of around it. The FIA will just have to clamp down immediately if someone tries to move air around the tyre. I suspect for 2020 the FIA will remove the complicated barge boards and go back to simpler pre 2017 versions.

I think that keeping the wider tyres is important but also a raised rear wing to 2009-16 levels, keeping the width but narrowing the cord could also help.

Also I think that Red Bull missed a trick and should have used their position in the race to try a 3 stop race and to hell with what the simulations said. Getting rid of the simulators should help reduce confidence in decision making. Reducing staff and the hours worked doesn't need to mean a reduction in sophistication. Just a reduction in the wasteful parts that don't add to the excitement that F1 is supposed to be.

User avatar
GPR-A duplicate2
167
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:00 am

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:26 am
GPR-A wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:42 am
carisi2k wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 am
clean up the following to reduce staff numbers and maybe in turn actually reduce costs and possibly increase the number of teams on the grid.

1. Get rid of their internet connections from track to base.
2. Make sure there is no staff at the factories during the Saturday and Sunday of a GP weekend.
3. Limit the amount of data engineers each team can have at the track
4. Reduce in season engine development and dyno testing.
5. End 24 hour operations at team and engine factories.
And make F1 the most outdated and stone age racing series on the planet.



Try & be serious for once, GPR-A.. as if..

Since.. Indy cars - have long-since had that particular title - well wrapped up..

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2010 ... is_500.jpg


Although.. if the F1 promoters.. can get hold of the Slag bros, they could be on to a neolithic winner..

http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/etc/wacky-art/winner.jpg
Try & be serious? Rubbish. Take some lessons in understanding English.

What good would be F1 racing, if it can't keep up with technology and competition. By definition, any racing series is an excess and you can't be MODERATE in being Excess. You either compete or sit back and watch, and if you choose to compete, then compete by being best possibly equipped. There are a thousand different categories to watch, where you are under budgeted for various reasons and F1 need not have to go that path and become another unattractive series. F1 has been the pinnacle of motor sport and that is because of all the technology that is brought to good use, not because of some kind of austerity drive.

If a team does a good job, then it deserves to win and shouldn't be crippled because others aren't doing a good job. You either compete and win OR go home, like the Toyotas, Hondas, BMWs and others. Austerity is simply nonsense.

zac510
zac510
39
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:58 am

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

Everybody is trying to 'solve' the wrong problem. Everybody is trying to solve boring races by making technical changes to the cars, or teams.

What we really need to do is solve complaining about boring races.

The technical solution simply doesn't matter if nobody complains about boring races.

Harvester
Harvester
3
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:14 pm

Re: 2018 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 8-10

Post

Boring races will happen from time to time. However, to have less boring races they have to somehow make sure that we have at least two stops and also that it is possible to come closer to the driver in front.