2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
LM10
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by LM10 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:12 pm

GrandAxe wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:03 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:47 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:06 pm

That is as logical as listening to rumours.
Hard fact is required here.
I can't provide you with facts. None of us can.
There are two options: Either you think that Mercedes' massive performance jumps in Barcelona and Paul Ricard were up to their upgrades or you think that it mainly were the tyres. Lewis' pole time in France was 4 tenths faster than Vettel's and Lewis could have been even faster for about 3 tenths. Do you think that Mercedes would be 7 tenths faster than Ferrari on pure performance?
This has got to be a joke. So, its all about Vettel and Ferrari, whereas there are 10 teams and 20 cars on the grid?
Come on, this is trolling.
Vettel was the fastest driver after the two Mercedes drivers. And he is the biggest and hardest contender of Lewis. Of course I'm gonna mention him.

Vasconia
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Location: Basque Country

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by Vasconia » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:26 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:57 pm
Or Ferrari cant use their fancy battery anymore. ;) or it’s a combination of all of them together.
But they were strong in Canada so it has to be (at light partially) with the tyres. Lets be clear, Mercedes has brought some good updates so its normal that they can be ahead, but it is also clear that the team has felt especially comfortable with these tyres. I think that the updates play a major role but the tyres also help.

Triumph1188
2
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:56 pm

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by Triumph1188 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:27 pm

LM10 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:47 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:06 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:54 am


By watching the weekends? :)
That is as logical as listening to rumours.
Hard fact is required here.
I can't provide you with facts. None of us can.
There are two options: Either you think that Mercedes' massive performance jumps in Barcelona and Paul Ricard were up to their upgrades or you think that it mainly were the tyres. Lewis' pole time in France was 4 tenths faster than Vettel's and Lewis could have been even faster for about 3 tenths. Do you think that Mercedes would be 7 tenths faster than Ferrari on pure performance?
I am not sure I am always on board with taking the best sector times for a given driver and then saying that is the fastest lap that person could have done if they strung it all together. I think many times there is give and take within the course of a qualy lap. If someone pushes too hard early in the lap they are more likely to sacrifice time towards the end because the tires are worked harder early on. Saving the tires at the beginning could yield a better middle and/or final sector. I am sure the teams and drivers talk about the best way to maximize performance over a single lap regarding tire management.

Could Lewis have found another .3s, maybe. Maybe his lap was the maximum that could be achieved as well. Maybe there was even more to be found...assuming that combining all the personal best sectors is the theoretical best lap isn't quite as simple as is sometimes taken for granted. Just my $.02.

Phil
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by Phil » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:29 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:26 pm
Phil wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:57 pm
Or Ferrari cant use their fancy battery anymore. ;) or it’s a combination of all of them together.
But they were strong in Canada so it has to be (at light partially) with the tyres. Lets be clear, Mercedes has brought some good updates so its normal that they can be ahead, but it is also clear that the team has felt especially comfortable with these tyres. I think that the updates play a major role but the tyres also help.
With new vs old engines that is no feat on a power dependant circuit. I also have to assume there was a bit of management going on as a DNF is very costly.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

GrandAxe
19
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:06 pm

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by GrandAxe » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:56 pm

LM10 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:12 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:03 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:47 pm


I can't provide you with facts. None of us can.
There are two options: Either you think that Mercedes' massive performance jumps in Barcelona and Paul Ricard were up to their upgrades or you think that it mainly were the tyres. Lewis' pole time in France was 4 tenths faster than Vettel's and Lewis could have been even faster for about 3 tenths. Do you think that Mercedes would be 7 tenths faster than Ferrari on pure performance?
This has got to be a joke. So, its all about Vettel and Ferrari, whereas there are 10 teams and 20 cars on the grid?
Come on, this is trolling.
Vettel was the fastest driver after the two Mercedes drivers. And he is the biggest and hardest contender of Lewis. Of course I'm gonna mention him.
I see. Out of twenty cars, you compare just two and make conclusions that defy logic. Two cars out of twenty is a meagre 10 percent of the data. Of course other "minor" matters don't count too; things like, car setup, inherent characteristics, driver idiosyncrasies, luck, motivation, hard evidence from the last Pirelli test etc.

Removing Merc and Ferrari, were the other 8 teams running around on something other than the same tyres, perhaps like Fred Flintsone and the other fortunate drivers in Bedrock do?

Please, lets move on from this and talk Austria.

JasonF1
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:45 pm

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by JasonF1 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:21 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:29 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:26 pm
Phil wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:57 pm
Or Ferrari cant use their fancy battery anymore. ;) or it’s a combination of all of them together.
But they were strong in Canada so it has to be (at light partially) with the tyres. Lets be clear, Mercedes has brought some good updates so its normal that they can be ahead, but it is also clear that the team has felt especially comfortable with these tyres. I think that the updates play a major role but the tyres also help.
With new vs old engines that is no feat on a power dependant circuit. I also have to assume there was a bit of management going on as a DNF is very costly.
To go from qualifying almost 5 tenths ahead in China and about 5 tenths ahead theoretically in Baku (Mistakes by both Ferrari drivers) to qualifying behind in Spain, France, and 1 tenth ahead in Canada (A. Davidson alluded to 4 tenths difference between a fresh spec 2.1 and a 6 race old spec 1), Ferrari has definitely lost something. If I had to guess, it would be the infamous battery trick.

Diesel
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Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by Diesel » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:29 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:26 pm
Phil wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:57 pm
Or Ferrari cant use their fancy battery anymore. ;) or it’s a combination of all of them together.
But they were strong in Canada so it has to be (at light partially) with the tyres. Lets be clear, Mercedes has brought some good updates so its normal that they can be ahead, but it is also clear that the team has felt especially comfortable with these tyres. I think that the updates play a major role but the tyres also help.
The thinner tread tyres are only coming to certain circuits, so to a certain extent, Ferrari better hope that Mercedes is getting all of the advantage from the different tyres because it would be temporary. I think the reality is that the tyres do suit the Mercedes a bit more than the Ferrari, but Mercedes have also made additional gains as well.

The latest Mercedes upgrade package looks very significant, let's see what it translates to on the circuit.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

Phil
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Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by Phil » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:47 pm

I think Silverstone is the only other track where the modified tires will be used.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Vasconia
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User avatar
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:45 am
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by Vasconia » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:13 pm

Diesel wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:29 pm
Vasconia wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:26 pm
Phil wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:57 pm
Or Ferrari cant use their fancy battery anymore. ;) or it’s a combination of all of them together.
But they were strong in Canada so it has to be (at light partially) with the tyres. Lets be clear, Mercedes has brought some good updates so its normal that they can be ahead, but it is also clear that the team has felt especially comfortable with these tyres. I think that the updates play a major role but the tyres also help.
The thinner tread tyres are only coming to certain circuits, so to a certain extent, Ferrari better hope that Mercedes is getting all of the advantage from the different tyres because it would be temporary. I think the reality is that the tyres do suit the Mercedes a bit more than the Ferrari, but Mercedes have also made additional gains as well.

The latest Mercedes upgrade package looks very significant, let's see what it translates to on the circuit.
Autoport says the current update for Austria is the biggest one so far. I hope that Ferrari also brings something important if we don´t want to suffer a great borefest. It will be interesting to see how much RB can improve during qualy with the Renault PU qualy mode. It would be awesome if the three teams can actually fight for the pole.

Vasconia
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Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:45 am
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by Vasconia » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:14 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:47 pm
I think Silverstone is the only other track where the modified tires will be used.
As far as I know you are right.

TAG
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Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:18 pm
Location: in a good place

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by TAG » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:25 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:14 pm
Phil wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:47 pm
I think Silverstone is the only other track where the modified tires will be used.
As far as I know you are right.

Yeap
The tyres, that have a thinner tread, will feature at the Spanish, French and British Grands Prix due to all three venues having undergone track resurfacing in the past year. -Pirelli
Countdown to 91: 10 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

gg_ss
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Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:49 pm

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by gg_ss » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:45 pm

Triumph1188 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:27 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:47 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:06 pm

That is as logical as listening to rumours.
Hard fact is required here.
I can't provide you with facts. None of us can.
There are two options: Either you think that Mercedes' massive performance jumps in Barcelona and Paul Ricard were up to their upgrades or you think that it mainly were the tyres. Lewis' pole time in France was 4 tenths faster than Vettel's and Lewis could have been even faster for about 3 tenths. Do you think that Mercedes would be 7 tenths faster than Ferrari on pure performance?
I am not sure I am always on board with taking the best sector times for a given driver and then saying that is the fastest lap that person could have done if they strung it all together. I think many times there is give and take within the course of a qualy lap. If someone pushes too hard early in the lap they are more likely to sacrifice time towards the end because the tires are worked harder early on. Saving the tires at the beginning could yield a better middle and/or final sector. I am sure the teams and drivers talk about the best way to maximize performance over a single lap regarding tire management.

Could Lewis have found another .3s, maybe. Maybe his lap was the maximum that could be achieved as well. Maybe there was even more to be found...assuming that combining all the personal best sectors is the theoretical best lap isn't quite as simple as is sometimes taken for granted. Just my $.02.
Just curious, did those $.02 cents came from the first paragraph or you extracted that from final paragraph :D :D .

bonjon1979
39
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:16 pm

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by bonjon1979 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:47 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:47 pm
I think Silverstone is the only other track where the modified tires will be used.
Spa?

Triumph1188
2
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:56 pm

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by Triumph1188 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:50 pm

gg_ss wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:45 pm
Triumph1188 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:27 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:47 pm


I can't provide you with facts. None of us can.
There are two options: Either you think that Mercedes' massive performance jumps in Barcelona and Paul Ricard were up to their upgrades or you think that it mainly were the tyres. Lewis' pole time in France was 4 tenths faster than Vettel's and Lewis could have been even faster for about 3 tenths. Do you think that Mercedes would be 7 tenths faster than Ferrari on pure performance?
I am not sure I am always on board with taking the best sector times for a given driver and then saying that is the fastest lap that person could have done if they strung it all together. I think many times there is give and take within the course of a qualy lap. If someone pushes too hard early in the lap they are more likely to sacrifice time towards the end because the tires are worked harder early on. Saving the tires at the beginning could yield a better middle and/or final sector. I am sure the teams and drivers talk about the best way to maximize performance over a single lap regarding tire management.

Could Lewis have found another .3s, maybe. Maybe his lap was the maximum that could be achieved as well. Maybe there was even more to be found...assuming that combining all the personal best sectors is the theoretical best lap isn't quite as simple as is sometimes taken for granted. Just my $.02.
Just curious, did those $.02 cents came from the first paragraph or you extracted that from final paragraph :D :D .
$.01 from each paragraph

Hammerfist
4
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:18 am

Re: 2018 Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 29 June - 1 July

Post by Hammerfist » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:59 pm

Triumph1188 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:27 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:47 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:06 pm

That is as logical as listening to rumours.
Hard fact is required here.
I can't provide you with facts. None of us can.
There are two options: Either you think that Mercedes' massive performance jumps in Barcelona and Paul Ricard were up to their upgrades or you think that it mainly were the tyres. Lewis' pole time in France was 4 tenths faster than Vettel's and Lewis could have been even faster for about 3 tenths. Do you think that Mercedes would be 7 tenths faster than Ferrari on pure performance?
I am not sure I am always on board with taking the best sector times for a given driver and then saying that is the fastest lap that person could have done if they strung it all together. I think many times there is give and take within the course of a qualy lap. If someone pushes too hard early in the lap they are more likely to sacrifice time towards the end because the tires are worked harder early on. Saving the tires at the beginning could yield a better middle and/or final sector. I am sure the teams and drivers talk about the best way to maximize performance over a single lap regarding tire management.

Could Lewis have found another .3s, maybe. Maybe his lap was the maximum that could be achieved as well. Maybe there was even more to be found...assuming that combining all the personal best sectors is the theoretical best lap isn't quite as simple as is sometimes taken for granted. Just my $.02.

I agree with what you are essentially saying but Hamilton said himself he left 3 tenths on the table.

However vettel also left time out there as his second q3 lap was not good at all. So there is no chance the gap was actually 7 tenths. The factual gap is probably close to what it should have been.