2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:39 am
Phil wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:41 pm
Yes, but a car running a high downforce setup will be more affected by dirty air, than a car running a low downforce setup, everything being equal. And, as i said, surface and grip levels plays a huge role too.

I didnt say Monza doesnt have highspeed (higher) corners. I believe i named them too (just not by names), but i also mentioned that the loss there was made up by the huge straights and the tow (as well as DRS support in Lewis’s case).

So is there really any dispute over why Lewis could follow relatively easy in Monza without having a negative affect on his tires?
No argument at all, I was pointing more towards drivers could follow relatively easy in Singapore without having a negative affect on their tyres due to the slow corner speeds.
Which just shows how poor Bottas was then.

With regard to easy following tracks Monaco at least should be discounted as at least 1 driver has moaned about being unable to follow around there.


This is about Mercedes and their improvements however. It’s clear that they have got on top of their tyre eating issues in much the same way as Ferrari don’t look quite as bulletproof in that regard as they did.

bonjon1979
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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Phil wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:32 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:06 pm
However let’s look back to Monza. Hamilton was in Raikkonen’s dirty air and was reporting no problems in fact he was happy to go on radio saying how good his tyres were. He then went far longer than Raikkonen on his starting tyres. Then look at Vettel’s and Raikkonen’s soft tyres. Vettels looked bad, Raikkonen’s looked damn right dangerous.
All the evidence points to Mercedes having got right on top of their tyre eating issues.
Monza and Singapore are two very, very different tracks. One has a very gripy surface, long straights and very low speed corners, the other is a street circuit, low grip, short straights with low speed corners but high downforce configuration.

While Mercedes did solve some of its tire issues that plagued them at the beginning of the year, Ferraris tire issues had to do with them pushing too hard on the soft tire at the beginning of the stint with lots of rubber on the tire. Blistering is a different issue that is not the same as tire wear! Again: the blistering Kimi suffered had nothing to do with driving in dirty air, but with overheating the tire when pushing too hard at the beginning of the stint!
Precisely, all in pure number of corners alone. There are 11 in monza versus 23 in singapore. Each of those corners is an event that stresses the tyres. If you are following in another cars wake, the effect is compounded. So in Singapore it is much harder to follow a car around a lap then it is in Monza as they're not able to make up the time lost in the corner while following by using the tow of the car in front. Also, tyres have less time to recover in between the turns.

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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Mercedes 2018 Singapore Grand Prix F1 Debrief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6snQ5R-0GaI

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:38 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:39 am
Phil wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:41 pm
Yes, but a car running a high downforce setup will be more affected by dirty air, than a car running a low downforce setup, everything being equal. And, as i said, surface and grip levels plays a huge role too.

I didnt say Monza doesnt have highspeed (higher) corners. I believe i named them too (just not by names), but i also mentioned that the loss there was made up by the huge straights and the tow (as well as DRS support in Lewis’s case).

So is there really any dispute over why Lewis could follow relatively easy in Monza without having a negative affect on his tires?
No argument at all, I was pointing more towards drivers could follow relatively easy in Singapore without having a negative affect on their tyres due to the slow corner speeds.
Which just shows how poor Bottas was then.

With regard to easy following tracks Monaco at least should be discounted as at least 1 driver has moaned about being unable to follow around there.


This is about Mercedes and their improvements however. It’s clear that they have got on top of their tyre eating issues in much the same way as Ferrari don’t look quite as bulletproof in that regard as they did.
Not tyre eating issues but issues switching the tyres on and keeping them in the correct range over the stint.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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Wynters wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:02 pm
Mercedes 2018 Singapore Grand Prix F1 Debrief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6snQ5R-0GaI
Masterful race leading yes? Showing Vettel how to Vettel? :mrgreen:
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:30 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:38 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:39 am


No argument at all, I was pointing more towards drivers could follow relatively easy in Singapore without having a negative affect on their tyres due to the slow corner speeds.
Which just shows how poor Bottas was then.

With regard to easy following tracks Monaco at least should be discounted as at least 1 driver has moaned about being unable to follow around there.


This is about Mercedes and their improvements however. It’s clear that they have got on top of their tyre eating issues in much the same way as Ferrari don’t look quite as bulletproof in that regard as they did.
Not tyre eating issues but issues switching the tyres on and keeping them in the correct range over the stint.
Potato-Potahto surely? Doesn’t 1 lead to the other?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:36 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:30 am

Not tyre eating issues but issues switching the tyres on and keeping them in the correct range over the stint.
Potato-Potahto surely? Doesn’t 1 lead to the other?
You can have cold tyres, long tyre life and be dog slow graining up the surface. And any combination .. hot .. graining..short life.. etc.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:34 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:36 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:30 am

Not tyre eating issues but issues switching the tyres on and keeping them in the correct range over the stint.
Potato-Potahto surely? Doesn’t 1 lead to the other?
You can have cold tyres, long tyre life and be dog slow graining up the surface. And any combination .. hot .. graining..short life.. etc.
But the Mercedes have had poor tyre life in comparison to others. They now don’t seem to have.
The better tyre temps have now stopped early tyre wear. Early tyre wear is just another name for ‘eating tyres’ surely?

dans79
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:10 pm
But the Mercedes have had poor tyre life in comparison to others. They now don’t seem to have.
The better tyre temps have now stopped early tyre wear. Early tyre wear is just another name for ‘eating tyres’ surely?
Tire temps is only part of the equation. They have drastically improved low speed grip as has been mentioned, and that probably helps even more than the rear drums and rims! If you are not shredding them trying to get the power down, they will last a lot longer.
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Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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dans79 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:18 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:10 pm
But the Mercedes have had poor tyre life in comparison to others. They now don’t seem to have.
The better tyre temps have now stopped early tyre wear. Early tyre wear is just another name for ‘eating tyres’ surely?
Tire temps is only part of the equation. They have drastically improved low speed grip as has been mentioned, and that probably helps even more than the rear drums and rims! If you are not shredding them trying to get the power down, they will last a lot longer.
I get all that. My point is that for whatever reason the Mercedes design team have stopped the car doing it. That was why I used the term I did as that is the net result.

basti313
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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Restomaniac wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:57 am
dans79 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:18 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:10 pm
But the Mercedes have had poor tyre life in comparison to others. They now don’t seem to have.
The better tyre temps have now stopped early tyre wear. Early tyre wear is just another name for ‘eating tyres’ surely?
Tire temps is only part of the equation. They have drastically improved low speed grip as has been mentioned, and that probably helps even more than the rear drums and rims! If you are not shredding them trying to get the power down, they will last a lot longer.
I get all that. My point is that for whatever reason the Mercedes design team have stopped the car doing it. That was why I used the term I did as that is the net result.
I am more on your side...in my view nor low speed grip or traction have improved or changed. Looking at the Q3 runs the Merc is still stronger under braking and the Ferrari is stronger out of the corner.
The game changer here was purely sector 3: While in the past the Merc mostly lost pole in S3 they now can push the whole lap without loosing the tire at the end. For me this is purely down to tire temps as "wear" does not play a role in a single Q lap on new tires.
The same will apply in Sotchi: The Mercs lost it at the end of S2 and in S3, while being better in S1 last year. With the stable tire temps it is a easy prediction, that the Mercs will be most probably on pole.

The same, of course, applies to the race: Following another car is only possible, if you can push out of the corner to stay in the slipstream. If the rear tires overheat you can not follow on any track. With a better rear tire cooling, you can stay close in Monza. With overheating the tires you blister them, just like Rai did when trying to follow Bot.

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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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Maybe you guys are getting too much ahead of yourself. They had great tyre wear in Singapore, plus great tyre degradation (not the same thing) in Italy. That's not immediately an indication they will get things together again for Sochi. Tyre wear and tyre degradation or complex processes which require hardware and set up being spot on.
#AeroFrodo

zibby43
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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turbof1 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:56 pm
Maybe you guys are getting too much ahead of yourself. They had great tyre wear in Singapore, plus great tyre degradation (not the same thing) in Italy. That's not immediately an indication they will get things together again for Sochi. Tyre wear and tyre degradation or complex processes which require hardware and set up being spot on.
Isn't degradation non-existent at Sochi? It's a really slick, almost constantly "green" track.

mkay
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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zibby43 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:53 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:56 pm
Maybe you guys are getting too much ahead of yourself. They had great tyre wear in Singapore, plus great tyre degradation (not the same thing) in Italy. That's not immediately an indication they will get things together again for Sochi. Tyre wear and tyre degradation or complex processes which require hardware and set up being spot on.
Isn't degradation non-existent at Sochi? It's a really slick, almost constantly "green" track.
Yep. This will be an easy 1-stopper HS to US. Unless it rains. As it stands, rain is forecast for qualifying, but not the race (though there is 25-30% probability of rain). It will be quite cool too, with temps in the low 20s throughout the weekend.

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atanatizante
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Re: 2018 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 14-16 September

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Phil wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:05 pm
I think the answer is pretty simple: when you have corners that rely on lots of front wing downforce to push the car to the surface to retain front-end grip, you obviously will suffer when following another car disturbing that air flow. Obviously, some cars are more reliant on front-end grip and some cars maybe disturb the air behind them more than others.

If and how much that turbulent air disturbs the one behind, depends on the circuit and the type of corners. Fast corners (high speed) obviously have more/require more downforce than low-speed corners that rely on mechanical grip. Monza is easy to explain because it's a low-downforce track, very high top-speeds and most corners (chicanes) are fairly slow. The last corner is perhaps medium speed, but what is lost there is then made up on the straight with the massive tow. Same applies to T3 at Monza (the right hander). What follows is a long straight up to the chicane.

Singapore is a street circuit. Very low grip, not very high top-speeds, so teams run maximum downforce (like at Monaco). Because it's low grip, it's important to have as much downforce as possible. Obviously, the more downforce you run/have, the more you lose when in another cars wake.

Mercedes have made lots of progress obviously, especially on the traction side and with the new rims they are running, have a better grip on managing the rear temperatures? But I don't think they suddenly found a magical solution to running close without losing tire performance. If you look at Bottas's race at Singapore, it points to the contrary.
We should focus on the big picture I dare to say.
So which are the variables and which the constants?
Except for HS tyre, for the last 3 races, we`ve got the same tyre compound and the same tyre wheel rims.
The only important variable parameter was track temp.
Lewis won at Monza and Singapore having a relative warm but similar track temp.
Only in Spa was lower and ending with poor tyre performance, presumably not being able to heat them enough in order to get into their optimum operating range.
Hence Ferrari is working them harder and overheating them as we could see in qualy at Singapore.
It`s kinda reverse situation from last year, don`t you think?
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