2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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Fulcrum
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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komninosm wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:33 am
Fulcrum wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:15 am
komninosm wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:06 am
I don't want to go too much off topic, but I'll give you two examples before and after Baku.
Remember last race when Rai was leading and Hamilton passed Vettel at the first corners after the start and Vettel wouldn't concede properly and crashed into Hamilton?
Remember several years ago when Vettel and Hamilton were in the pits side by side and Vettel tried to push Hamilton into pit crews instead of giving him space?
Vettel is a dirty driver, remember what he did to Webber?
Vettel and Ferrari were a good match...
Remember last race when Rai was leading and Hamilton passed Vettel at the first corners after the start and Vettel wouldn't concede properly and crashed into Hamilton?
The last race was Singapore, and very little of what you refer to - other than Raikkonen leading for a few laps - actually happened. So I guess you mean Monza? To describe their contact as a 'crash' is, again, pure hyperbole.

Remember several years ago when Vettel and Hamilton were in the pits side by side and Vettel tried to push Hamilton into pit crews instead of giving him space?
You mean this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEW_9A0z1TU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BPNqKASFRQ

Hamilton didn't seem too concerned.
As far as I'm concerned, I thought it was okay,' said Hamilton. 'The team were waiting for quite some time and they waited until it was the right time; but as I came out I noticed Sebastian was there - he was pushing me a little bit to the right and we pushed wheels. Other than that, it was fair.'
Vettel, meanwhile, felt Hamilton was at fault for the incident. 'At the stop I was ahead; I don't know why he pulled to the left and was keen to touch me,' said the German.
Vettel is a dirty driver, remember what he did to Webber?
Turkey 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU
Vettel's fault for sure. Dirty? No, just stupid.

Malaysia 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU_G4fEpaCQ
Not obeying team orders, but notice it is Webber almost putting Vettel in the wall.

Perhaps you'd like to expand on your list of grievances with Vettel, this is a forum after all.

GrandAxe
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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Bottas might need a pep talk and a bonus, but not because the team owes it to him. That's putting it coldly, but lets not forget that he had been really slow, holding Lewis up and causing his gap to Vettel to shrink alarmingly from 5+ seconds to 1+.

I doubt there would have been a swap if Bottas had been haring down the road.
He wasn't even attacking Max, who in turn responded by driving very leisurely indeed (possibly saving tyres in the hope of a safety car). However, as soon as Lewis got past, wisdom and manners told Max to speed up.

Bottas got swapped because he left his killer instinct at Williams.
Last edited by GrandAxe on Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

GrandAxe
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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As for Vettel being a dirty driver ... Not so. That label hangs over drivers like Maldonado and Magnussen (to a lesser extent).
Vettel just lacks race craft. He doesn't seem to have the laser-like awareness of other top drivers for where his car is located with reference to others.

marvin78
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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He had that with RedBull. Many times and examples are available.

Fulcrum
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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GrandAxe wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:43 am
As for Vettel being a dirty driver ... Not so. That label hangs over drivers like Maldonado and Magnussen (to a lesser extent).
Vettel just lacks race craft. He doesn't seem to have the laser-like awareness of other top drivers for where his car is located with reference to others.
Relative to Hamilton, Vettel's racecraft is far less sophisticated, let's put it that way.

Of the current drivers, Hamilton is far more comfortable, and better, driving in close proximity - whether defending or attacking. This is a huge advantage, as it means he typically doesn't overreact, lose composure, or become overly emotional. I can't say the same for Vettel.

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iotar__
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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GrandAxe wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:35 am
Bottas might need a pep talk and a bonus, but not because the team owes it to him. That's putting it coldly, but lets not forget that he had been really slow, holding Lewis up and causing his gap to Vettel to shrink alarmingly from 5+ seconds to 1+.

I doubt there would have been a swap if Bottas had been haring down the road.
He wasn't even attacking Max, who in turn responded by driving very leisurely indeed (possibly saving tyres in the hope of a safety car). However, as soon as Lewis got past, wisdom and manners told Max to speed up.

Bottas got swapped because he left his killer instinct at Williams.
Here comes avelanche of BS excuses for fake pure racer =P~ . Hamilton was slow in Q and not quick enough to overtake, how about that? Not that he had to, it was all planned before the race, everyone knew about it.

- TO were to quote Vettel "no brainer" Hamlton playing lilly white team orders virgin is a different story, just own it and stop shifting responsibility. For example in a disgusting and dishonest way like you did: "Bottas got swapped because he left his killer instinct at Williams". He had enough killer instinct to lead, did he? It was Hamilton with no killer instinct to Q and to overtake. He had to be carried by team and teammate once again =P~ .

- TO were ofc fine, unlike lack of TO in Hungary '14, TO in Monaco or 2xTO in third race of the season in Bahrain (killer instinct).

- What happened to big tow theories :wink: ?

falonso81
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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Do we have footage or screenshot of Hamilton exiting the pit lane after his stop. I think he crossed the white line. Isn't this a penalty?

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garyjpaterson
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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falonso81 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:33 am
Do we have footage or screenshot of Hamilton exiting the pit lane after his stop. I think he crossed the white line. Isn't this a penalty?
Doesn't even get close to the white line when exiting the pitlane.

https://streamable.com/yn2mz

Jolle
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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garyjpaterson wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:39 am
falonso81 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:33 am
Do we have footage or screenshot of Hamilton exiting the pit lane after his stop. I think he crossed the white line. Isn't this a penalty?
Doesn't even get close to the white line when exiting the pitlane.

https://streamable.com/yn2mz
Whether it’s the dirty air from BOT or the pressure from HAM, VET’s lines are very sloppy in this clip.

f1316
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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Very odd to me to find Mercedes feeling the need to apologise for anything or explain themselves - as far as I’m concerned, moving Hamilton ahead was obviously the thing to do if you want to win.

Why on earth Ferrari have been so ridiculous reticent this year is quite beyond me - it’s absolutely clear that Kimi cannot compete for championships any more and Ferrari have plenty of years’ experience with him to see that; if I’d been running the team I’d utilise him tactically from race one (as, btw, I would have moved Massa out of Alonso’s way in Oz 2013, which would have helped him win the race, but that’s both another and the same story). In Austria Vettel could have scored three more points, he’d have been under far less pressure in German if Kimi had been moved straight away, and favouring Vettel in Italy quali would have avoided that whole debacle and swung a huge amount of points Vettel’s way.

As for Seb’s racecraft, I disagree that’s a fault - he’s shown some stunning moves over the past two seasons and many before that in the RB. His problem seems to more related to pressure and making mistakes - I think he’s genuinely a little faster than Alonso but I believe Alonso would be winning this year’s championship in a Ferrari through consistency. Guys like him, Lewis - and especially Michael - are great in pressure situations; they do make mistakes but rarely and somehow seem to get better when the pressure’s really on.

I think the Vettel era may end up a bit like the Prost one - good, close, but the competitor is just a little bit better, much as it pains me to say it. I hope Leclerc is everything he’s cracked up to be and can do a 2007 Hamilton (without the fumble at the end).

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Phil
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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zac510 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:45 am
Phil wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:14 am
Speaking of strategy and team-orders... some thoughts.

Critical Question: Were Mercedes really that conflicted about the orders given?

Given they could have switched back at the end, my initial opinion was 'no'. However, if the plan had been from the beginning to ensure that Hamilton gets the maximum result, they could have simply boxed him first, before Bottas.
I think you are using some hindsight bias here. In hindsight there was an undercut advantage, but at the time it as not clear whether it would be undercut or overcut.
You are right, I was. Before the race, I was questioning if an undercut would be possible going onto the harder tire. In Singapore, it didn't - here, it did - by quite a big margin. But for Mercedes, it should have been quite clear that the undercut worked, as I think Magnussen in the Haas had done so just a few laps before and showed that the undercut onto the Soft tire actually was very effective.

Anyway, I am not trying to justify what Mercedes did. I think it was unnecessary and disappointing - and I am saying this as a LH fan. I want him to win on his own merit, not the teams. Not like that. But on the other hand, I also admire Mercedes for doing what they deem is a "necessary evil". If they do in fact have some insight, perhaps a reliability concern, I suppose it was the right call to make, even if we as outsiders will never know that.

I also think that if the plan had been in place from the beginning to have Hamilton finish ahead of Bottas, they could have done it through the strategy without the negative PR. At the point of the pit-stops, Bottas was I think 1.5s ahead of Hamilton, Vettel was 2s behind. More than enough for an effective undercut to work. To pit Hamilton first would have been a logical move at that point, even if it meant Bottas would lose his track position. But it would have safely ensured a 1-2 for Mercedes, rather than risk a 1-3 with Hamilton behind Vettel.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Jolle
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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Phil wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:02 pm
zac510 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:45 am
Phil wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:14 am
Speaking of strategy and team-orders... some thoughts.

Critical Question: Were Mercedes really that conflicted about the orders given?

Given they could have switched back at the end, my initial opinion was 'no'. However, if the plan had been from the beginning to ensure that Hamilton gets the maximum result, they could have simply boxed him first, before Bottas.
I think you are using some hindsight bias here. In hindsight there was an undercut advantage, but at the time it as not clear whether it would be undercut or overcut.
You are right, I was. Before the race, I was questioning if an undercut would be possible going onto the harder tire. In Singapore, it didn't - here, it did - by quite a big margin. But for Mercedes, it should have been quite clear that the undercut worked, as I think Magnussen in the Haas had done so just a few laps before and showed that the undercut onto the Soft tire actually was very effective.

Anyway, I am not trying to justify what Mercedes did. I think it was unnecessary and disappointing - and I am saying this as a LH fan. I want him to win on his own merit, not the teams. Not like that. But on the other hand, I also admire Mercedes for doing what they deem is a "necessary evil". If they do in fact have some insight, perhaps a reliability concern, I suppose it was the right call to make, even if we as outsiders will never know that.

I also think that if the plan had been in place from the beginning to have Hamilton finish ahead of Bottas, they could have done it through the strategy without the negative PR. At the point of the pit-stops, Bottas was I think 1.5s ahead of Hamilton, Vettel was 2s behind. More than enough for an effective undercut to work. To pit Hamilton first would have been a logical move at that point, even if it meant Bottas would lose his track position. But it would have safely ensured a 1-2 for Mercedes, rather than risk a 1-3 with Hamilton behind Vettel.
I think Hamilton said is very well after the race: "this wasn't the result I wanted but it was the result the team wanted"

falonso81
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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garyjpaterson wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:39 am
falonso81 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:33 am
Do we have footage or screenshot of Hamilton exiting the pit lane after his stop. I think he crossed the white line. Isn't this a penalty?
Doesn't even get close to the white line when exiting the pitlane.

https://streamable.com/yn2mz
My bad then , i thought he crossed it when i was watching the race live. Thank you for the clip.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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f1316 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:59 am
Very odd to me to find Mercedes feeling the need to apologise for anything or explain themselves - as far as I’m concerned, moving Hamilton ahead was obviously the thing to do if you want to win.

Why on earth Ferrari have been so ridiculous reticent this year is quite beyond me - it’s absolutely clear that Kimi cannot compete for championships any more and Ferrari have plenty of years’ experience with him to see that; if I’d been running the team I’d utilise him tactically from race one (as, btw, I would have moved Massa out of Alonso’s way in Oz 2013, which would have helped him win the race, but that’s both another and the same story). In Austria Vettel could have scored three more points, he’d have been under far less pressure in German if Kimi had been moved straight away, and favouring Vettel in Italy quali would have avoided that whole debacle and swung a huge amount of points Vettel’s way.

As for Seb’s racecraft, I disagree that’s a fault - he’s shown some stunning moves over the past two seasons and many before that in the RB. His problem seems to more related to pressure and making mistakes - I think he’s genuinely a little faster than Alonso but I believe Alonso would be winning this year’s championship in a Ferrari through consistency. Guys like him, Lewis - and especially Michael - are great in pressure situations; they do make mistakes but rarely and somehow seem to get better when the pressure’s really on.

I think the Vettel era may end up a bit like the Prost one - good, close, but the competitor is just a little bit better, much as it pains me to say it. I hope Leclerc is everything he’s cracked up to be and can do a 2007 Hamilton (without the fumble at the end).
Listening to the interviews with Bottas, he seemed bemused by it. It looks to me as if the pre race talk had agreed it was race on, not orders. I don't think Toto is shy about giving the order, just that he had already told Bottas it would not come.

Also, Bottas moved right to give Hamilton a slip instead of Vettel, from the start, I wonder if it was a conscious move to help, or just in his own interests? Good team mate work anyway
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

richardn
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Re: 2018 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 28 - 30 September

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Apparently the US was "not a good tyre" in Sochi and "everybody struggled on it", which

(a) explains why Max did well in the first stint and went backwards when he switched to US.
(b) means Ferrari's choice of only taking a single set of Soft tyres for Vettel looks a bit silly in hindsight.