2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by turbof1 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:51 pm

It is neither. They keep telemetry of the steering input.
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zac510
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by zac510 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:00 pm

I don't blame the FIA (although they're an easy punching bag). Just these race threads alone show that there are always many conflicting viewpoints and opinions and after reading them even one can change their own opinion. It's naive to think that if you were the FIA and ruled with your opinion on every clash that you too would not be subjected to the same criticisms that Charlie and the FIA are now.

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:14 pm

zac510 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:00 pm
It's naive to think that if you were the FIA and ruled with your opinion on every clash that you too would not be subjected to the same criticisms that Charlie and the FIA are now.
They deserve every bit of criticism they get, because they are inconsistent, and wishy washy far to often.

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Phil » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:39 pm

dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:14 pm
Regardless Vettels on-board shows the different story. As Hamilton closes in, he turns the wheel slightly to the right and then straitens it out. Thus he is not moving across the track at a constant rate. However as Lewis goes even further right than Vettel, Vettel turns the wheel to the right twice more in quick succession, to ensure he blocks him off.
I would have to watch the replay (I haven't), but just reading and going by what you are writing, doesn't this suggest a constant movement to the inside?

If he wouldn't be 'straightening' his steering wheel, he wouldn't be cutting across the track diagonally, but in a curve/radius like he would going around a corner?
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TAG
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by TAG » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:43 pm

dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:14 pm
imo, this is why you see Whiting/FIA making the statement now about two moves regardless of direction. Vettel got lucky because what he did is not strictly prohibited by the rules, so now the loophole is being closed.
Same as when Vettel parked half his car outside the grid box, they "clarified" the rules next race.
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by GrandAxe » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:59 pm

I wonder how many times a season we get rule clarifications?
It would be really interesting to do a year on year comparison with some other sport - say boxing or football.

That should give a solid measure of consistency (or the inverse). We could call it Consistency Density, or something similarly apt and fun. :D
Last edited by GrandAxe on Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by F1NAC » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:59 pm

Just look at stabilized video. It is one continuous movement from Vettel. Gentle movements from steering wheel



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maxxer
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by maxxer » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:02 pm

Still going on about this Vet and Ves incident ,

For me it was a useless attempt too early , he should have just waited one round and fly by Ves easily.
On the other hand if he did have the space the exit out of the corner would have been comprimised ending up next to Ves and then maybe on engine power win it.
But clearly if you are in the race for the championship it is stupid to take such a risk
Ves already answered a question after qually that he doesnt care about drivers who are racing for the championship

GrandAxe
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by GrandAxe » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:08 pm

F1NAC wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:59 pm
Just look at stabilized video. It is one continuous movement from Vettel. Gentle movements from steering wheel

https://streamable.com/6u9o9

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Its clear he moved, paused, then moved again. Even Charlie says there where two movements, though in the same direction; further, that sort of thing is now banned. I think Charlies words should clear that aspect up.

Vettel broke two rules. One moving in the breaking zone; and the second, moving twice (as clarified).

maxxer
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by maxxer » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:12 pm

maxxer wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:02 pm
Still going on about this Vet and Ves incident ,

For me it was a useless attempt too early , he should have just waited one round and fly by Ves easily.
On the other hand if he did have the space the exit out of the corner would have been comprimised ending up next to Ves and then maybe on engine power win it.
But clearly if you are in the race for the championship it is stupid to take such a risk
Ves already answered a question after qually that he doesnt care about drivers who are racing for the championship
20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.

I havent found the rules of turning in to someone in a corner

dans79
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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:48 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:39 pm
I would have to watch the replay (I haven't), but just reading and going by what you are writing, doesn't this suggest a constant movement to the inside?
It might be my explanation or how you are thinking about it, but you are just slightly off.

Think about driving down a strait 2 lane high way in the left lane. If you turn your wheel slightly to the right, and then bring it back to the neutral (strait position), the car is going in a strait line, but it's trajectory is no longer parallel to the highway, instead its at a slight angle. Thus you will end up in the right lane eventually and have to turn the wheel left to get the car back in a trajectory parallel to the highway.

Another way to think of it is as a vector diagram. by turning the wheel slight to the right and then bringing it back to the neuronal position the car has a velocity parallel to the highway, and one perpendicular to it (though very small).

the two additional right inputs Vettel made increased the cars velocity perpendicular to the track.


I see it like this.
  1. Vettel made his initial move to the right
  2. Lewis followed suit with a more substantial move, meaning he would get to the right side of the track before Vettel, thus being able to pass up the inside.
  3. Vettel realized this, and thus the two additional right inputs to ensure he got right before Lewis, so he could block him off.
Until the announcement this was legal, under a strict reading of the rules because all the movements were in the same direction. The problem is that the subsequent moments can lead to a situation where a crash is inevitable, as the trailing driver is committed and can't back out do to the speed difference and lack of down force.

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:06 pm

F1NAC wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:59 pm
Just look at stabilized video. It is one continuous movement from Vettel. Gentle movements from steering wheel

https://streamable.com/6u9o9
Take a look at the official on-boards (3:25).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwzYrqSjHtw

Also that footage has been doctored, as you don't see Bottas at all until he passes across the frame at the end of the video like a ghost.




Now read Charlie's quotes.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13932 ... ied-by-fia
"What I did clarify to them is that if a driver does two moves in the same direction, that is the same as doing one in either direction,"
In short, as far as the FIA, Stewards, & Charlie is concerned any action such as Vettels will be considered multiple moves and will be punished accordingly.

The fact the Charlie clarified with the drivers proves it was multiple moves. However under the rules at the time what Vettel did was not strictly prohibited, and thus not punishable.

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Juzh » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:12 pm

dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:06 pm
F1NAC wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:59 pm
Just look at stabilized video. It is one continuous movement from Vettel. Gentle movements from steering wheel

https://streamable.com/6u9o9
Take a look at the official on-boards (3:25).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwzYrqSjHtw

Also that footage has been doctored, as you don't see Bottas at all until he passes across the frame at the end of the video like a ghost.
It's been "doctored" in a way to easier see the actual movement of the cars. I'm not sure what you're implying here.

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by Juzh » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:19 pm

Look at this random race lap by hamilton and stare at the extent to which he was cruising. Not pushing at all, car stable 100% at all times, slow wheel movements, masive lift trough 130r, 4th gear 5300 rpm trough the final chicane.. Not even trying to go fast, yet laptimes somehow stay perfectly fine.

https://streamable.com/iipyu

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Re: 2018 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 5-7 October

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:21 pm

Juzh wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:12 pm
It's been "doctored" in a way to easier see the actual movement of the cars. I'm not sure what you're implying here.
This, and the fact the the timing looks speed up!
Image