2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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sosic2121
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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alexx_88 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:28 pm
If it were a battle for position, 100% Max would've been penalized and I think the stewards were massively wrong to penalize Ocon for it.

Lewis is the driver that grew the most in my mind over the past few years.
I don't think he would have get a penalty.
He got none for IMO similar crash with Vettel and for far worse with Ric in Baku(and some wonder why Ric is leaving).

As a bit of "Lewis anti-fan" I couldn't agree more.
I think it was Spa 2016 when I was surprised with his patience and cautious approach. He started dead last and finished 3rd.

netoperek
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:18 pm
I don't agree with the Ocon was faster statement. This statement is only based on the previous round sectors 1 and 3, in sector 2 Max was faster. With sector 1 and 2 Ocon having some DRS advantage. Some say also slipstream advantage. With a lap behind there is no reason to think Ocon was faster, and for the moment itself it was clearly DRS that enabled the move of Ocon.

Now on the tires, some say Ocon wanted to make the best of his new tires. This is not correct, when you start pushing right out of the pit you kill your tires. Ocon still had more than 25 laps to go, if you want a good result you don't go burn up your tires right at the start. So pushing to go after Max would have a negative effect on the race result for Ocon.

And this is what fuels the Mercedes conspiracy, why did Ocon push so hard from the pit, killing his tires instead of trying to get a good race result. I don't believe the conspiracy, I think there is another reason, namely the history between Ocon and Max and the frustration of Ocon with his current situation.

In conclusion, Ocon had no reason to be there other than to hinder to Max.
I have a very strong feeling, that in reversed situation You would say a bit different story ;) What makes You say Ocon was pushing very hard and killing his tires? His onboard shows rather smooth ride. On his outlap he was already at Max pace, getting faster as he got some heat into his tires. Maybe he was that much faster than Max on this particular moment that being stuck behind was significantly slowing him down?
GPR -A wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:22 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:12 pm
I think the second is a no-go. That would lead to a loss of the spectable as less cars will be in competition nearer the end of the race. No more blue flags could work, but I think it will be viewed as unfair/unnecessary hold up. I think the 3th is the best option.
Sorry no offence, but what is the spectacle they are adding to? The only excitement they provide is when they crash and bring Safety Car, which adds to a bit of drama. If that is the purpose they drive to serve, may be it isn't such a big deal to send to them to pits when they get blue flags.
1) In Spain this year, You would be left with 5 cars on the track, with only 3rd and 4th having some sort of a battle. In Austria only top3 would be left by the end of the race. In Mexico 4 left with no fight whatsoever. How is that interesting?
2) There would be no historic comebacks like Jim Clarke at Monza '67 anymore. Also some very impressive, even if not winning comebacks like Bottas getting 2nd in Baku '17 from being lap behind.
3) There are far more interesting battles in the crowded midfield than in 1,2 or 3 at most horsed race upfront.

DutchDopey
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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netoperek wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:02 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:18 pm
I don't agree with the Ocon was faster statement. This statement is only based on the previous round sectors 1 and 3, in sector 2 Max was faster. With sector 1 and 2 Ocon having some DRS advantage. Some say also slipstream advantage. With a lap behind there is no reason to think Ocon was faster, and for the moment itself it was clearly DRS that enabled the move of Ocon.

Now on the tires, some say Ocon wanted to make the best of his new tires. This is not correct, when you start pushing right out of the pit you kill your tires. Ocon still had more than 25 laps to go, if you want a good result you don't go burn up your tires right at the start. So pushing to go after Max would have a negative effect on the race result for Ocon.

And this is what fuels the Mercedes conspiracy, why did Ocon push so hard from the pit, killing his tires instead of trying to get a good race result. I don't believe the conspiracy, I think there is another reason, namely the history between Ocon and Max and the frustration of Ocon with his current situation.

In conclusion, Ocon had no reason to be there other than to hinder to Max.
I have a very strong feeling, that in reversed situation You would say a bit different story ;) What makes You say Ocon was pushing very hard and killing his tires? His onboard shows rather smooth ride. On his outlap he was already at Max pace, getting faster as he got some heat into his tires. Maybe he was that much faster than Max on this particular moment that being stuck behind was significantly slowing him down?
I think Max has done a lot of stupid things this season, but this was not one of them.

The laps before the incident Ocon was slower (up to 2-3 seconds), the laps after the incident Ocon was slower (0.5 up to a second).

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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:23 pm
netoperek wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:02 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:18 pm
I don't agree with the Ocon was faster statement. This statement is only based on the previous round sectors 1 and 3, in sector 2 Max was faster. With sector 1 and 2 Ocon having some DRS advantage. Some say also slipstream advantage. With a lap behind there is no reason to think Ocon was faster, and for the moment itself it was clearly DRS that enabled the move of Ocon.

Now on the tires, some say Ocon wanted to make the best of his new tires. This is not correct, when you start pushing right out of the pit you kill your tires. Ocon still had more than 25 laps to go, if you want a good result you don't go burn up your tires right at the start. So pushing to go after Max would have a negative effect on the race result for Ocon.

And this is what fuels the Mercedes conspiracy, why did Ocon push so hard from the pit, killing his tires instead of trying to get a good race result. I don't believe the conspiracy, I think there is another reason, namely the history between Ocon and Max and the frustration of Ocon with his current situation.

In conclusion, Ocon had no reason to be there other than to hinder to Max.
I have a very strong feeling, that in reversed situation You would say a bit different story ;) What makes You say Ocon was pushing very hard and killing his tires? His onboard shows rather smooth ride. On his outlap he was already at Max pace, getting faster as he got some heat into his tires. Maybe he was that much faster than Max on this particular moment that being stuck behind was significantly slowing him down?
I think Max has done a lot of stupid things this season, but this was not one of them.

The laps before the incident Ocon was slower (up to 2-3 seconds), the laps after the incident Ocon was slower (0.5 up to a second).
That comparison might not be relevant. First of all, it could have been Verstappen was running his PU in a detuned state before the accident. Second, just like Verstappen Ocon could have suffered damage.

The only thing relevant concerning who was faster and who slower, was that Ocon closed the distance right up to the accident, which means he was faster before the accident. It doesn't matter if Verstappen was cruising, Ocon had fresh tyres, had DRS or had a Boeing Jet Engine at his car. Ocon was simply faster, for 2 laps straight.
#AeroFrodo

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:23 pm
The laps before the incident Ocon was slower (up to 2-3 seconds),
This is both irrelevant and inaccurate. Ocon was not on fresh, faster tyres in all but one of the previous laps and, in the lap immediately before the incident, he closed on Verstappen (which is difficult if he was 2-3 seconds slower).
DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:23 pm
the laps after the incident Ocon was slower (0.5 up to a second).
What damage did Ocon suffer relative to Verstappen (bodywork and tyres)? What were the relative impacts to their potential fastest lap times? Do you think, even if Ocon could have gone faster, he would have tried to pass Verstappen again?

What is undeniable is that, after he exited the pits, Ocon was a certain distance behind Verstappen. Once the team cleared him to close on Verstappen, that distance closed pretty easily (because Max was almost certainly driving to a delta). Except in certain specific situations (DRS / slipstream on a straight / etc) in this era of highly tuned aero you need to be significantly faster than the car in front to even follow closely, let alone overtake. For instance, Ricciardo was clearly faster than Raikkonen for pretty much the whole race and yet couldn't get close enough to make a useful move.

DutchDopey
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:28 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:23 pm
netoperek wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:02 pm
I have a very strong feeling, that in reversed situation You would say a bit different story ;) What makes You say Ocon was pushing very hard and killing his tires? His onboard shows rather smooth ride. On his outlap he was already at Max pace, getting faster as he got some heat into his tires. Maybe he was that much faster than Max on this particular moment that being stuck behind was significantly slowing him down?
I think Max has done a lot of stupid things this season, but this was not one of them.

The laps before the incident Ocon was slower (up to 2-3 seconds), the laps after the incident Ocon was slower (0.5 up to a second).
That comparison might not be relevant. First of all, it could have been Verstappen was running his PU in a detuned state before the accident. Second, just like Verstappen Ocon could have suffered damage.

The only thing relevant concerning who was faster and who slower, was that Ocon closed the distance right up to the accident, which means he was faster before the accident. It doesn't matter if Verstappen was cruising, Ocon had fresh tyres, had DRS or had a Boeing Jet Engine at his car. Ocon was simply faster, for 2 laps straight.
That is very shortsighted, of course that matters. Why was Ocon pushing so hard, that was only negative for his own result not positive as I explained. Saying he was 2 laps faster on a whole race and so Ocon was the faster driver is just searching to blame Max in anyway, unreasonable.

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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:35 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:28 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:23 pm

I think Max has done a lot of stupid things this season, but this was not one of them.

The laps before the incident Ocon was slower (up to 2-3 seconds), the laps after the incident Ocon was slower (0.5 up to a second).
That comparison might not be relevant. First of all, it could have been Verstappen was running his PU in a detuned state before the accident. Second, just like Verstappen Ocon could have suffered damage.

The only thing relevant concerning who was faster and who slower, was that Ocon closed the distance right up to the accident, which means he was faster before the accident. It doesn't matter if Verstappen was cruising, Ocon had fresh tyres, had DRS or had a Boeing Jet Engine at his car. Ocon was simply faster, for 2 laps straight.
That is very shortsighted, of course that matters. Why was Ocon pushing so hard, that was only negative for his own result not positive as I explained. Saying he was 2 laps faster on a whole race and so Ocon was the faster driver is just searching to blame Max in anyway, unreasonable.
But what makes you think Ocon was pushing hard? Ocon was trying to drive the pace he felt best with. If that pace was slower than Verstappen's, of course he would not have attempted an overtake. At the end of the day, Verstappen at that moment in time drove slower than Ocon. That's not rocket science; a force india on spanking new tyres can be faster than a red bull. It's not suddenly a crime to be faster than a top 3 car.

I can't believe we are critizicing a driver for a perceived "pushing hard".
#AeroFrodo

DutchDopey
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:41 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:35 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:28 pm


That comparison might not be relevant. First of all, it could have been Verstappen was running his PU in a detuned state before the accident. Second, just like Verstappen Ocon could have suffered damage.

The only thing relevant concerning who was faster and who slower, was that Ocon closed the distance right up to the accident, which means he was faster before the accident. It doesn't matter if Verstappen was cruising, Ocon had fresh tyres, had DRS or had a Boeing Jet Engine at his car. Ocon was simply faster, for 2 laps straight.
That is very shortsighted, of course that matters. Why was Ocon pushing so hard, that was only negative for his own result not positive as I explained. Saying he was 2 laps faster on a whole race and so Ocon was the faster driver is just searching to blame Max in anyway, unreasonable.
But what makes you think Ocon was pushing hard? Ocon was trying to drive the pace he felt best with. If that pace was slower than Verstappen's, of course he would not have attempted an overtake. At the end of the day, Verstappen at that moment in time drove slower than Ocon. That's not rocket science; a force india on spanking new tyres can be faster than a red bull. It's not suddenly a crime to be faster than a top 3 car.

I can't believe we are critizicing a driver for a perceived "pushing hard".
He was pushing hard relative to the race pace he had the whole race. Now why would he do that when it has a negative effect on his race as a whole. You are right if he was fighting for a position, but the only advantage he got now was that he could hinder Max.

DutchDopey
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Wynters wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:33 pm
What is undeniable is that, after he exited the pits, Ocon was a certain distance behind Verstappen. Once the team cleared him to close on Verstappen, that distance closed pretty easily (because Max was almost certainly driving to a delta).
This is just not true. He came in directly behind Max so got the DRS advantage immediately.

digitalrurouni
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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This thread is getting so boring with all the Max and Ocon back and forth. Crap happens on track. Ocon got a penalty. Max should get one for his behavior off track. But they didn't as usual. Red Bull should really stop making excuses for Max being a grade A dick.

More interesting topic - what was up with Lewis's PU? Anyone know more? Failure imminent but somehow they managed to drag it along? Something about exhaust temps being super high? What can cause that?

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Closing thoughts, this isn't the first time Max has threatened to get physical this year, he was talking about punching reportings earlier in the season and not a joking kind of way.

Adrian Sutil was the last driver I can remember to get involved in an altercation off the track, and it effectively ruined his career. It would be a shame if a similar thing happened to Max.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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I don't think you can solely blame Ocon for his actions.

The information I don't have is, if Ocon knows who he's racing against? How does Ocon know that the first car ahead isn't a Red Bull?

If Max decides to defend Ocon's overtaking, Ocon's instinct as a driver would be the car ahead is the car he's racing for position.

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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Diesel wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:06 pm
Closing thoughts, this isn't the first time Max has threatened to get physical this year, he was talking about punching reportings earlier in the season and not a joking kind of way.

Adrian Sutil was the last driver I can remember to get involved in an altercation off the track, and it effectively ruined his career. It would be a shame if a similar thing happened to Max.
Won't happen because Max is a fan favourite on the grid, while Sutil wasn't.

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:47 pm
Wynters wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:33 pm
What is undeniable is that, after he exited the pits, Ocon was a certain distance behind Verstappen. Once the team cleared him to close on Verstappen, that distance closed pretty easily (because Max was almost certainly driving to a delta).
This is just not true. He came in directly behind Max so got the DRS advantage immediately.
What was the gap to Max when he exited the pits (which was after the second DRS zone so Max had most of a lap to pull away at '2-3 seconds a lap')? It's difficult to tell using the video but I believe it was more than a second at the end of S2 of that first lap. However, it's probably irrelevant as...How much faster do you need to be to maintain position within a second despite the turbulent air? Does DRS make you a second faster a lap? The Red Bull was clearly faster than the Ferrari yet how long was Ricciardo unable to get alongside Raikkonen? Bear in mind that Ocon didn't start pushing until he'd radioed the pitlane and received clearance to unlap himself.

Lap pace relative to overall race pace is irrelevant. At the point he exited the pits Ocon was using fresh super softs (which I don't think he'd had access to before) and he was driving a car that was at it's lightest so far. After the crash his car was damaged. Of course, he was going faster in the two laps leading up to the incident.

Wynters
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:11 pm
The information I don't have is, if Ocon knows who he's racing against? How does Ocon know that the first car ahead isn't a Red Bull?
Ocon radioed the pits for permission to unlap himself.
WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:11 pm
If Max decides to defend Ocon's overtaking, Ocon's instinct as a driver would be the car ahead is the car he's racing for position.
Following Max blocking the inside line at the end of the straight, Ocon should've realised that he wasn't going to be 'waved past'. It would have been wiser to tuck in through the esses, as he had cleaner, younger, faster tyres and had a better line and then blast past max in the second DRS zone.