2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:56 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:19 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:03 pm
Pace has nothing to do with this. It's about sportsmanship. Ocon had no reason to clash with Max, other than the fact that Ocon mentioned himself that there IS a history of the two clashing.

Max pushing Ocon might be considered poor sportsmanship, but at least it was off the track out of the car. Ocon's deliberate poor sportsmanship cost a potential winner the race. I don't care who it was who would have won but I don't take it likely. Now the question is if it was Lewis or someone else would Ocon have ceded? Probably.
Strange you should mention ‘sportsmanship’. How sporting is it to put your car directly in the way of your team mate because he dares to want to be past you and making it so late as to give him no chance of avoiding a collision? Watch Baku 2018 for details. Before it’s mentioned, the relevance is obvious.

I can see the clear talent in Verstappen but by god he needs to learn that others are going to and can pass him now and then.
Clearly, Baku 2018 was a case of a battle for position and a commit and lock up by Ricciardo into the rear of his teammate. To say that this incident and the one between Max and Ocon are "comparable" is a bit off-base. If anything, Max has showed great reservation in preventing clashes with Ricciardo and the one other incident where the two came together was at Hungary, where Max locked up and slid out wide and accidentally took Ricciardo out. Perez and Ocon have had more clashes and caused more disarray within their team and I don't remember Perez having much beef with any of his teammates.

Sportsmanship as in racing etiquette. Max pushing Ocon might be "unprofessional" or "unsportsmanlike" but it's not like Max was endangering Ocon or bloodied his face. Most other sports results in brawls, benches emptying, dirty plays. What Max did was MORE than reserved and Ocon's "what did I do?" hands up in the air gesture was personally disappointing. Ocon probably wouldn't have received the shove if he had owned up to it and admitted he cost Max the victory. Obviously we know such an apology wouldn't come from Ocon. And when I say poor sportsmanship I mean it with regard to Esteban Ocon and his poor decision to pass the leader on the outside of turn 1 into the inside of turn 2 and then ultimately not owing up to the incident when confronted by the driver he shafted.
Not really in the case of Baku Verstappen knew full well that once he stuck his car there it was game over. No way was Ricciardo stopping in time when it was left that late. It was as unsportsmanlike as you like. To then have unsportsmanlike aimed at Ocon is therefore a little rich.

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turbof1
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:48 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:19 am
As usual with a case where we aren't floating towards a concensus, it's best to call it a day, agree to disagree and move on. There are enough other events to talk about.
But but the contortions, twisted justifications, and strait up incorrect reading of the rules by those in orange is hilarious to read!
To be fair, there are no real regulations in place for unlapping. It's all based on spoken words, gentlemen's agreements, a whole lot of assumptions and a vast majority depending on opinion. No matter who you think is right or wrong in the end, a lack of clear, written regulation on what an unlapping driver is allowed to, is always going to leave room for differences in opinion.

For what it is worth, most arguments on both sides make sense. People so much love to think flat dimensionally black 'n white, while it is much more a grey area where the truth is multi dimensional. I swear I didn't smoke pot.
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dans79
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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I'm sure Vettel is enjoying the issue, as it has completely overshadowed his run in with the stewards on Saturday.

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Phil
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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turbof1 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:43 pm
To be fair, there are no real regulations in place for unlapping. It's all based on spoken words, gentlemen's agreements, a whole lot of assumptions and a vast majority depending on opinion. No matter who you think is right or wrong in the end, a lack of clear, written regulation on what an unlapping driver is allowed to, is always going to leave room for differences in opinion.
IMO there are only two ways one can judge this incident:

1.)
Lapped/Unlapped being irrelevant. E.g. would you judge the situation the same if it were a fight for position and not a backmarker unlapping himself. If yes, and they were fighting for an actual position against each other, was Max in the right to turn to the apex and cutting off another car who was crowding that space while decently alongside?

2.)
Lapped car being a relevant, therefore attributing a higher “right” to one of the cars, most likely Verstappen because he was a full lap ahead. If yes, what would one expect a lapped car to do (who is allowed to unlap himself)? Jump out of the way every time the leader comes close? Brake and back out of any maneuver, regardless of the move had a legitimate chance to succeed?

If it’s #1, we can judge it as a black/white race situation between two cars battling for position.

However, the reason the stewards punished Ocon is because they deemed the fact that he was indeed lapped and in the process of unlapping himself to be highly relevant. One must consider though that as Turbo says, there is no rule that clarifies what is expected of a driver unlapping himself, under what conditions, what is deemed as “safe” and especially how he is allowed to behave if the car he is overtaking is not being coorporative and playing ball. This is where I think Max stuffed it for himself and took an unnecessary risk - he wasnt being cooporative, he was defending and battling his position. Is that supposed to be within his right and how far is he to go?
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strad
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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I never said it was a rule. It's more like a gentleman racers understanding.
As for Verstappen behaving like a child. I never heard this kind of outrage when James Hunt was pissing on a female TV personality. Or when he was throwing Chivas Regal bottles out of an 18th floor window and cutting passersby or throwing bedclothes and other stuff out of a 13th floor window. Childish for sure.
Nor did anyone throw these kind of insults at Mike Hailwood when would party all night and show up for the race still half drunk . Surely that was childish as was Innes Ireland climbing a tree to "water" his fellow competitors.
Much of this thread shows why I seldom come to the race review section.
A lot of hyperbole and ranting.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Ah nostalgia, it's not what it used to be...
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Big Tea
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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Phil wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:29 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:43 pm
To be fair, there are no real regulations in place for unlapping. It's all based on spoken words, gentlemen's agreements, a whole lot of assumptions and a vast majority depending on opinion. No matter who you think is right or wrong in the end, a lack of clear, written regulation on what an unlapping driver is allowed to, is always going to leave room for differences in opinion.
IMO there are only two ways one can judge this incident:

1.)
Lapped/Unlapped being irrelevant. E.g. would you judge the situation the same if it were a fight for position and not a backmarker unlapping himself. If yes, and they were fighting for an actual position against each other, was Max in the right to turn to the apex and cutting off another car who was crowding that space while decently alongside?

2.)
Lapped car being a relevant, therefore attributing a higher “right” to one of the cars, most likely Verstappen because he was a full lap ahead. If yes, what would one expect a lapped car to do (who is allowed to unlap himself)? Jump out of the way every time the leader comes close? Brake and back out of any maneuver, regardless of the move had a legitimate chance to succeed?

If it’s #1, we can judge it as a black/white race situation between two cars battling for position.

However, the reason the stewards punished Ocon is because they deemed the fact that he was indeed lapped and in the process of unlapping himself to be highly relevant. One must consider though that as Turbo says, there is no rule that clarifies what is expected of a driver unlapping himself, under what conditions, what is deemed as “safe” and especially how he is allowed to behave if the car he is overtaking is not being coorporative and playing ball. This is where I think Max stuffed it for himself and took an unnecessary risk - he wasnt being cooporative, he was defending and battling his position. Is that supposed to be within his right and how far is he to go?
While I agree with you technically, I judge it a someone without a drive making a show, and someone with an easy race win being pig headed. Had Max said "ah you...." and still left him a few feet, Max would be a win to the good and the other driver would still not have a car for next year. Lose/Lose/Lose/Lose.
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strad
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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He tried to unlap himself in the improper place.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Sieper
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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For me this race threat has been very forming, a lot of users have shown their true colours.

To me this site has always been about informed discussion, and If not informed, at least decent but a lot of this discussion has really gone passed what I would call a discussion and into the realm of alternative reality or simply trolling.
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Godius
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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GrandAxe wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:32 pm
Godius wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:04 pm
GrandAxe wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:37 pm


You mean the Williams racing team is made up of fools to have actually put the same set of rules in their racing book? Haha!
One thing I've learnt is that fools are quick to label others as fools; its some sort of law of nature. :lol: :lol:

In any event, the illustration in my post is not on a straight and does not mention braking zones either, so you are making up your owns targets outside what was posted - your arguments really do not attack the subject, a total miss really.
The regulation you brought up is not in effect for years anymore. When is still had effect back in the day it counted on straights and braking zones. Please keep up to date with the rules. It was 27.7 of the sporting regulations btw: Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
Enh?! The rule you quoted has absolutely nothing to do with anything I posted or anything on the preceding pages either.

Please stop making things up and going off point to defend weak arguments. Not a good thing, brother. Also don't call others fools when you are the one making things up like some sort of factory, the Universe might not like it. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I have better things to do. Bye.
Your incompetence to show the imaginary rule you are talking about says enough.

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Vasconia
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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bill shoe wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:29 pm
Wynters wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:03 pm
I wonder how Renault reacted to Sainz's little tap on Hulk? Not ideal for team mates.
Yea, it was an unnecessary & intentional tap between turns at a time when Hulk was giving him consistent racing room on every corner. I think Hulk and Sainz are perfect teammates to each other because they're both similar quick and therefore focused/motivated by each other. Hulk will have a great "motivator" teammate in Riccardo next year, but I don't know if Sainz will have the same standard in Norris.
I guess they were nervous but both drivers managed the situation very well. Just a nice contrast to others drivers who don´t know how to manage those wheel to wheel battles without ruinning their or others race.

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AnthonyG
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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strad wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:25 pm
He tried to unlap himself in the improper place.
I don't think you saw the actual onboard, but Max was defending his position from Ocon.
https://streamable.com/0bynn?fbclid=IwA ... blpM8FttwI

How anybody objectively can look at this and think Ocon was at fault is beyond my comprehension.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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AnthonyG wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:30 pm
strad wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:25 pm
He tried to unlap himself in the improper place.
I don't think you saw the actual onboard, but Max was defending his position from Ocon.
https://streamable.com/0bynn?fbclid=IwA ... blpM8FttwI

How anybody objectively can look at this and think Ocon was at fault is beyond my comprehension.
It seems there is a small minority that think it was all Ocons fault including the race stewards.
But I agree with you, how anyone can't see the way Max side swiped Ocon is unbelievable
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marvin78
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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And we are going round and round.

Time to close this thread. There is nothing new to come...

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

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I agree. shut it down, roll on monday when we all talk about Abu Dhabi and the Red Bull qualifying 5th and 6th with the Force India's 7th and 8th, oh crap here we go again :lol:
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