2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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Laserguru
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:22 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:30 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:02 pm


Leclerc in the Ferrari will have Max in his pocket, then Russell/Ocon in the Mercedes.
To be fair, we have seen almost none of what LeClerc's abilities are. He has beaten a mediocre driver over the season with a decent car AND with some really amazing performances. We will have to reserve the comparison with Max. Max has beaten one of the best drivers on the grid who was his team mate, day in day out in qualifying and over a season in 2018 (anyone talking about Ric DNFs should use the same template for 2017 comparisons). So, until LeClerc goes out there and delivers the goods, first, by beating his own team mate and then taking his car to deserving results, he wouldn't be in a position to be compared with Max. There is no doubt the kid is a great talent. Let's wait.

Well, Ocon doesn't excite anyone that much. He might be good, but there hasn't been an outstanding performance from him until now.

Russell hasn't turned a wheel in F1 yet. He looks to be no different than LeClerc. Exciting times ahead!
You not watch any of the feeder series ?

Leclerc won the F2 title easily as a rookie.
He won the GP3 title, as a rookie.

How many drivers in history have done that?
Then add the performances he has done at Sauber, it looks like in a Ferrari he will be epic.
The long story also includes 2014 Formule Renault 2.0 where he finished 2nd behind Nyck de Vries and 2015 Formule 3 where he finished 2nd behind Rosenqvist. They never reached f1. Though Frits van Amersfoort rated him higher than Max during their time served at VAR. Personally I consider him a little boring, similar to Ocon, but their driving style brought success in their feeder series. I am more interested in the Vettel - le Clerc battle to see if he is really that good. Max is recognised as a contender by both Hamilton and Vettel, not so much Ocon and le Clerc. If le Clerc beats Vettel on merrit, like Max did wih Riccardo, we can truly expect great things from him (and no more from Vettel). Feeder series don’t tell the complete story, refer to Stoffel (or: what happened to him?). The only weakness I heard of so far is that le Clerc is not that fond of all the million settings and switches modern f1 cars feature. Expect it to be a very exciting season. Might be le Clerc vs Max like Prost vs Senna for the years to come. Lewis vs Vettel meanwhile. Who said f1 is boring?
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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TwanV wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:31 pm
Yawn are you guys serious? I'm not saying he's a bad driver and he delivered (still.. China..) but it's all so construed. Hamilton was groomed for years, was a lot older than Verstappen and had the fastest car on the grid. No comparison possible with other drivers that didn't follow the same path..

What bothers me the most after 2018.. Bottas was simply better in the first races but had ricciardoesque bad luck, then Mercedes went for Hamilton all of the sudden. If he's so almost supernaturally special as you claim why did he need a wingman? :oops:
If Bottas was Lewis wingman it´s not because he need it, but because the WDC after first half of the season (10GPs) was 163 vs 104 points, so Bottas was more than two races back from Hamilton and Vettel was leading the championship with 171 points

Any team will do the same in that situation

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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Max beat Ricciardo on merit, thats not quite as clear as you say. Max also lost in the time he was team mates to Ric in 2016, and lost to Ric on merit in 2017 ,where nearly everyone seems to think Max had a bad season for reliability when in fact Ricciardo suffered more mechanical issues than Max in 2017 Daniel had 5 retirements through mechanical issues to Max's 4! Just like 2018, Ric had 7 (i think) mechanical issues to Max's 3. So people need to stop thinking Max had more reliability issues than Daniel, when its a load of crap!
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:37 pm
TwanV wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:31 pm
Yawn are you guys serious? I'm not saying he's a bad driver and he delivered (still.. China..) but it's all so construed. Hamilton was groomed for years, was a lot older than Verstappen and had the fastest car on the grid. No comparison possible with other drivers that didn't follow the same path..

What bothers me the most after 2018.. Bottas was simply better in the first races but had ricciardoesque bad luck, then Mercedes went for Hamilton all of the sudden. If he's so almost supernaturally special as you claim why did he need a wingman? :oops:
If Bottas was Lewis wingman it´s not because he need it, but because the WDC after first half of the season (10GPs) was 163 vs 104 points, so Bottas was more than two races back from Hamilton and Vettel was leading the championship with 171 points

Any team will do the same in that situation
Totally agree. Any team that wouldnt do it would be very foolish!
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ringo
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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The crux of the matter is Verstappen is not the second coming. We would have heard Sir Frank mention him. :lol:
We saw a glimpse of what is to come should Ocon have a decent car and go up against Max.
That little part of the race where he was racing max. He put up a good fight, and i dare say give him an equal car and he can beat max half of the time.
Redbull cars tend to be very good on tyres and braking and balance. They have made Vettel look masterful for 4 years until Daniel came by and the rules changed where redbull didn't get a handle on its signature traits. The newer RB12 and up cars a very well balanced and can follow well in dirty air like their championship winning ancestors and make drivers look very mighty.
I expect Ocon in mercedes in 2020 fighting Max and Leclerc, and i don't have max as favourite. All it takes is Honda to give him a few "engine braking" issues and he will be toast. leclerc seems to be the real deal. He may just end Vettel's career. Ocon to end Bottas'.
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ringo
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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TwanV wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:31 pm
Yawn are you guys serious? I'm not saying he's a bad driver and he delivered (still.. China..) but it's all so construed. Hamilton was groomed for years, was a lot older than Verstappen and had the fastest car on the grid. No comparison possible with other drivers that didn't follow the same path..

What bothers me the most after 2018.. Bottas was simply better in the first races but had ricciardoesque bad luck, then Mercedes went for Hamilton all of the sudden. If he's so almost supernaturally special as you claim why did he need a wingman? :oops:
The china thing was a team decision by the way. They should have pitted earlier as the driver was suggesting.
Any how, the focus is the driving ability and on track performance. Hamilton was able to equal Alonso in race craft and speed (surpass him in speed admitedly by alonso these days). I'm not going into the team conspiracies. A rookie is a rookie. Testing is not racing and age is just a number. Grid starts and laps raced determines how "old" a driver is.

Bottas was better in which race in particular?
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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TwanV wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:16 pm
Sorry nathan, that's another one of those hero constructs from Mercedes and the British press. Just like when their car always seems to be of the brink of breaking down after they win a race.. Mercedes had the best car more than half of the races this year, period. And it's plain to see vettel didn't have the advantage Hamilton had this year wingmanwise.
So best car for more than half the races is at least 11,

I thought Mercedes was strongest (as you said best car) in
Australia, Spain, France, Austria, Italy, Singapore, Russia, Japan, Abu Dhabi.

Ferrari was a better car than Mercedes in,
Bahrain, China , Azerbaijan, Monaco, Canada, Germany (vettel gone until the rain), Britain, Hungary, Spa, USA, Mexico.

So up to the summer break, Mercedes had the strongest car for 4 races. Ferrari had a stronger car in 8 races yet the points between Ham and Vet was 24 points in Hamiltons favour!

So I fail to see how you can say Mercedes had the best car for over half of the season, 11 races at least and maybe you mean more than 11 ?
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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I have to see the season review but I don't remember Ferrari being dominant in those races like Mercedes was the last couple of years. Your reasoning is something like : Hamilton didn't win so it must have been the car. It's a self fulfilling prophesy. Don't get me wrong Hamilton did great this year, but let's keep our feet on the ground.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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First of , who said anything about being dominant. Secondly, Hamilton didn't win in Australia and Austria yet I accepted he had the best car. Thirdly you claim that Merc had the best car in most of the races this year but you need to see a season review to see who had the better package.
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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ringo wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:47 pm
The crux of the matter is Verstappen is not the second coming. We would have heard Sir Frank mention him. :lol:
We saw a glimpse of what is to come should Ocon have a decent car and go up against Max.
That little part of the race where he was racing max. He put up a good fight, and i dare say give him an equal car and he can beat max half of the time.
Redbull cars tend to be very good on tyres and braking and balance. They have made Vettel look masterful for 4 years until Daniel came by and the rules changed where redbull didn't get a handle on its signature traits. The newer RB12 and up cars a very well balanced and can follow well in dirty air like their championship winning ancestors and make drivers look very mighty.
I expect Ocon in mercedes in 2020 fighting Max and Leclerc, and i don't have max as favourite. All it takes is Honda to give him a few "engine braking" issues and he will be toast. leclerc seems to be the real deal. He may just end Vettel's career. Ocon to end Bottas'.
On YouTube you can see back many of the F3 battles between Max and Ocon, Max was in a midfield car and Ocon the absolute best car at that time. Please do so, it is quite entertaining viewing material, that’s one. And I am curious to read your opinion after having done so.
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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ringo wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:47 pm
Redbull cars tend to be very good on tyres and braking and balance. They have made Vettel look masterful for 4 years until Daniel came by and the rules changed where redbull didn't get a handle on its signature traits. The newer RB12 and up cars a very well balanced and can follow well in dirty air like their championship winning ancestors and make drivers look very mighty.
Yes!, as good as they are I think Vettel and Max are only truly quicker than their teammates when the car cooperates at a near-perfect level. When RB had aero/handling issues early one season then suddenly Vettel was no better than Webber, and in a later year (as you mention) he no better than Riccardo. This year, Max did not get a consistent upper hand on Riccardo until the second half of the season when the RB turned golden.

Vettel & Max don't quite have an Alonso-esque ability to hustle an imperfect car. Of course the downside is that Alonso was so good at driving around problems that he may have been a bit weak at car development.

If you put Vettel or Max into an average, say, 1987 Formula 1 car they'd just wilt from the amount of inconsistency and imperfection in braking, shifting, aero, handling, etc. I think Raikkonen covered this vehicle-tuning aspect at Ferrari for Alonso and later for Vettel (ironically enabling them to consistently kick his butt in qualy and races). This great feedback is surely the only reason Ferrari put up with Raikkonen's lackluster pace for so long.
[/quote]

TwanV
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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I don't agree Ringo.. This will probably get me in trouble again, but Ocon's season was far from impressive to me (or Perez was just very strong). I think this whole protection story from Mercedes about him is a lot of hot air too, if he truly is as important to them as we are led to believe he would be racing next season. That or Bottas is out before the year is over, but again why would Hamilton change anything at the moment..

Tzk
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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Twanv:
So like wehrlein? They chose bottas over wehrlein... bottas was a toto-managed driver and wehrlein a merc driver. They still dropped wehrlein.

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ringo
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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TwanV wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:19 am
I don't agree Ringo.. This will probably get me in trouble again, but Ocon's season was far from impressive to me (or Perez was just very strong). I think this whole protection story from Mercedes about him is a lot of hot air too, if he truly is as important to them as we are led to believe he would be racing next season. That or Bottas is out before the year is over, but again why would Hamilton change anything at the moment..
Ok i somewhat see your point. Ocon isn't very flashy, but i believe he has shown in the earlier part of the year to have good race pace and race management. He doesn't complain much on track, and usually drives to his strategy without fading like Bottas does. Ocon is respectable and has capacity to develop without having an ego. His main weakness i think is underestimating other drivers on track. He has tried to overtake on the outside 3 or 4 times, and he keeps trying the move and failing. No respectable driver is going to let that happen to them, and usually the result is a contact.
Other than that he is pretty solid for his age, and drives a mature race.
I'm not saying he is better than Max now, but if Totto grooms him, given his solid base currently, Ocon can be a good Bottas replacement in short order.
Maybe there is something more they see which we can't see.
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Re: 2018 United Arab Emirates Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Abu Dhabi, 23-26 November

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Tzk wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:57 am
Twanv:
So like wehrlein? They chose bottas over wehrlein... bottas was a toto-managed driver and wehrlein a merc driver. They still dropped wehrlein.
Wehrlein got dropped for being a diva, the last thing Mercedes needed was someone with a diva attitude alongside their star driver casuing the team trouble in the garage. His nickname in the paddock was widely known to be "Princess Pacal".
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