2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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Carl Mccoy
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:12 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:03 am
Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:36 am

I'm not sure which F1 you were watching, but one thing that can not be denied is that hamilton did have off weekends in the last couple of years where he simply wasn't on the pace. I remember russia in 2017 and canada last year off the top of my head, maybe there were some others. He didn't make any costly mistakes though.

On the other side, verstappen and vettel are pretty much never off the pace, but are more error prone.
Vettel was nowhere in Australia last year in comparison to Raikkonen and it was luck that handed him the win. Similarly, Verstappen had a god awful beginning to his 2018 campaign until he got his head in place by Monaco.

All drivers have off days. Lewis generally accepts it (because he's grown up) and collects the points on offer. It reduces the margin he loses to his rivals on his bad days and there are not many.
"nowhere" as in still able to win the race. Raikkonen wasn't really that much faster, and if there were no SC him and vettel would probably be a few seconds apart at the end of the race.
The advantage of Mercedes in the race was definitely smaller. Luis could not build a really significant advantage over Kimi.

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F1NAC
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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Carl Mccoy wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:43 pm


The advantage of Mercedes in the race was definitely smaller. Luis could not build a really significant advantage over Kimi.
He couldn't or he didn't want to? It is known that in these days as soon as you make a 3 - 5 second gap it is all managing afterwards

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:12 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:03 am
Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:36 am

I'm not sure which F1 you were watching, but one thing that can not be denied is that hamilton did have off weekends in the last couple of years where he simply wasn't on the pace. I remember russia in 2017 and canada last year off the top of my head, maybe there were some others. He didn't make any costly mistakes though.

On the other side, verstappen and vettel are pretty much never off the pace, but are more error prone.
Vettel was nowhere in Australia last year in comparison to Raikkonen and it was luck that handed him the win. Similarly, Verstappen had a god awful beginning to his 2018 campaign until he got his head in place by Monaco.

All drivers have off days. Lewis generally accepts it (because he's grown up) and collects the points on offer. It reduces the margin he loses to his rivals on his bad days and there are not many.
"nowhere" as in still able to win the race. Raikkonen wasn't really that much faster, and if there were no SC him and vettel would probably be a few seconds apart at the end of the race.
I don't think you will find Bottas bothering Hamilton anymore than Raikkonen did Vettel. They are both clearly a cut above. I don't think Alonso beat Massa every day in his tenure, neither did Schumacher beat Irvine. They were clearly a cut above, but not invincible because no one is.

This "Lewis has off weekends" is a figment of imagination of people who need something to criticise him just like those who have now established in their heads that "Vettel lacks mental strength." It's beyond me why fans fail to acknowledge two great champions of our sport. That's my basic point.

I'm not at all a fan of Lewis' PR garbage. It's a well established thing on these forums. I am not a fan of his personality, but that doesn't mean I ignore his massive talent and appreciate what he has achieved.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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So with the Honda gains, and Red Bull saying they had achieved 2018 downforce Levels way before 2019 even began, how can RedBull gain the least of the top 3 ??
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Capharol
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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getting the feeling ppl here think 2 dimensional, and not 3 dimensional..... black/white but there are loads of grey area.
try to think outside the box, see it from another angle.

then most discussion become way more irrelevant then you think

to the mods: i know this has nothing to do with the topic but i just trying to show all that there are more roads that leads to Rome, that there are grey areas and somethings can't be explained as easy as the opposite thinks it is
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:40 pm
So with the Honda gains, and Red Bull saying they had achieved 2018 downforce Levels way before 2019 even began, how can RedBull gain the least of the top 3 ??
Whatever down force they have now, is what they had in 2018. That is what it means, when they claimed that they have recovered all the down force from 2018. They kept thumping their chests that they had THE best chassis in 2018, which was all hot gas just for PR. They did exactly what McLaren was doing with Honda, blaming it on Renault.

It's not that they can go and magically add loads of down force to their current chassis, without adding loads of drag, which will once again slow them down on straights. Gone are the days of EBD and Coanda tricks. With Mercedes and Ferrari having built depth in their aerodynamic strengths, it's going to be very difficult for RB to compete, even with the rejuvenated Honda PU.

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Juzh
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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GPR -A wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:42 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:40 pm
So with the Honda gains, and Red Bull saying they had achieved 2018 downforce Levels way before 2019 even began, how can RedBull gain the least of the top 3 ??
Whatever down force they have now, is what they had in 2018. That is what it means, when they claimed that they have recovered all the down force from 2018. They kept thumping their chests that they had THE best chassis in 2018, which was all hot gas just for PR. They did exactly what McLaren was doing with Honda, blaming it on Renault.

It's not that they can go and magically add loads of down force to their current chassis, without adding loads of drag, which will once again slow them down on straights. Gone are the days of EBD and Coanda tricks. With Mercedes and Ferrari having built depth in their aerodynamic strengths, it's going to be very difficult for RB to compete, even with the rejuvenated Honda PU.
Your condesending theory falls flat on its head because RB14 was faster trough pretty much every corner in 2018 than RB15 is in 2019, and was also faster than mercedes (not even gonna include ferrari here), something that clearly isn't the case this year. Comparing red bull to mclaren is just dumb, no offence. RB has actually proven their worth by winning races where PU was not as important and by often times having the best non-power hungry sectors on various tracks.
All I'm waiting for you to say now is that renault PU was more or less equal last year and then I've seen it all.

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Juzh
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:58 pm
This "Lewis has off weekends" is a figment of imagination of people who need something to criticise him just like those who have now established in their heads that "Vettel lacks mental strength." It's beyond me why fans fail to acknowledge two great champions of our sport. That's my basic point.
Stop overreacting. At no point did I say criticise hamilton for something that even his own sane supporters would not admit and the things that I mentioned were certainly not "figments of imagination" as you've put it. You're going too far in the other direction mate.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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Juzh wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:24 am
GPR -A wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:42 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:40 pm
So with the Honda gains, and Red Bull saying they had achieved 2018 downforce Levels way before 2019 even began, how can RedBull gain the least of the top 3 ??
Whatever down force they have now, is what they had in 2018. That is what it means, when they claimed that they have recovered all the down force from 2018. They kept thumping their chests that they had THE best chassis in 2018, which was all hot gas just for PR. They did exactly what McLaren was doing with Honda, blaming it on Renault.

It's not that they can go and magically add loads of down force to their current chassis, without adding loads of drag, which will once again slow them down on straights. Gone are the days of EBD and Coanda tricks. With Mercedes and Ferrari having built depth in their aerodynamic strengths, it's going to be very difficult for RB to compete, even with the rejuvenated Honda PU.
Your condesending theory falls flat on its head because RB14 was faster trough pretty much every corner in 2018 than RB15 is in 2019, and was also faster than mercedes (not even gonna include ferrari here), something that clearly isn't the case this year. Comparing red bull to mclaren is just dumb, no offence. RB has actually proven their worth by winning races where PU was not as important and by often times having the best non-power hungry sectors on various tracks.
All I'm waiting for you to say now is that renault PU was more or less equal last year and then I've seen it all.
Would you like to answer my original question?
If RedBull had got back to 2018 downforce levels, and Honda have given them a huge power gain to compete, why are they only 0.5 faster?

Remembering Ferrari and Merc made bigger jumps but there's no way they have gained as much BHP as RedBull have over the winter.
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Juzh
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:39 am
Juzh wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:24 am
GPR -A wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:42 am
Whatever down force they have now, is what they had in 2018. That is what it means, when they claimed that they have recovered all the down force from 2018. They kept thumping their chests that they had THE best chassis in 2018, which was all hot gas just for PR. They did exactly what McLaren was doing with Honda, blaming it on Renault.

It's not that they can go and magically add loads of down force to their current chassis, without adding loads of drag, which will once again slow them down on straights. Gone are the days of EBD and Coanda tricks. With Mercedes and Ferrari having built depth in their aerodynamic strengths, it's going to be very difficult for RB to compete, even with the rejuvenated Honda PU.
Your condesending theory falls flat on its head because RB14 was faster trough pretty much every corner in 2018 than RB15 is in 2019, and was also faster than mercedes (not even gonna include ferrari here), something that clearly isn't the case this year. Comparing red bull to mclaren is just dumb, no offence. RB has actually proven their worth by winning races where PU was not as important and by often times having the best non-power hungry sectors on various tracks.
All I'm waiting for you to say now is that renault PU was more or less equal last year and then I've seen it all.
Would you like to answer my original question?
If RedBull had got back to 2018 downforce levels, and Honda have given them a huge power gain to compete, why are they only 0.5 faster?

Remembering Ferrari and Merc made bigger jumps but there's no way they have gained as much BHP as RedBull have over the winter.
3 explanations imo:
1. RB/helmut marko are lying about how much downforce they managed to regain.
2. merc/ferrari regained all their downforce and then some
3. both of the above

Option 3 seems the most plausible. Onboard footage and accompanying telemetry would confirm this. RB gained massive power boost, but dropped the ball on the chassis side, kinda like the start of 2017, but a stronger engine is compensating this year.

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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Juzh wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:24 am
Your condesending theory falls flat on its head because RB14 was faster trough pretty much every corner in 2018 than RB15 is in 2019, and was also faster than mercedes (not even gonna include ferrari here), something that clearly isn't the case this year. Comparing red bull to mclaren is just dumb, no offence. RB has actually proven their worth by winning races where PU was not as important and by often times having the best non-power hungry sectors on various tracks.
All I'm waiting for you to say now is that renault PU was more or less equal last year and then I've seen it all.
In how many qualifyings last year, Red Bull beat Merc and Ferrari on the down force demanding sectors?
If you show the races as the evidence for the performance, then that also falls flat as races are not the place to measure the ultimate performance of a car due to various parameters influencing the race performance.
With this year placing premium for fastest lap, I am sure we would see the numbers moving towards qualifying type of performance, which should also favor the fast machine in the race.

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Juzh
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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GPR -A wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:57 am
Juzh wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:24 am
Your condesending theory falls flat on its head because RB14 was faster trough pretty much every corner in 2018 than RB15 is in 2019, and was also faster than mercedes (not even gonna include ferrari here), something that clearly isn't the case this year. Comparing red bull to mclaren is just dumb, no offence. RB has actually proven their worth by winning races where PU was not as important and by often times having the best non-power hungry sectors on various tracks.
All I'm waiting for you to say now is that renault PU was more or less equal last year and then I've seen it all.
In how many qualifyings last year, Red Bull beat Merc and Ferrari on the down force demanding sectors?
If you show the races as the evidence for the performance, then that also falls flat as races are not the place to measure the ultimate performance of a car due to various parameters influencing the performance.
With this year placing premium for fastest lap, I am sure we would see the numbers moving towards qualifying type of performance, which should also favor the fast machine in the race.
You simply can't compare qualifying performances when the ferrari and merc turned up their PUs to eleven. When mercedes was 10+ kmh faster in every speed trap and ferrari 15 kmh there's not much you can do about it. And yet they did on some tracks.

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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Juzh wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:02 am
GPR -A wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:57 am
Juzh wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:24 am
Your condesending theory falls flat on its head because RB14 was faster trough pretty much every corner in 2018 than RB15 is in 2019, and was also faster than mercedes (not even gonna include ferrari here), something that clearly isn't the case this year. Comparing red bull to mclaren is just dumb, no offence. RB has actually proven their worth by winning races where PU was not as important and by often times having the best non-power hungry sectors on various tracks.
All I'm waiting for you to say now is that renault PU was more or less equal last year and then I've seen it all.
In how many qualifyings last year, Red Bull beat Merc and Ferrari on the down force demanding sectors?
If you show the races as the evidence for the performance, then that also falls flat as races are not the place to measure the ultimate performance of a car due to various parameters influencing the performance.
With this year placing premium for fastest lap, I am sure we would see the numbers moving towards qualifying type of performance, which should also favor the fast machine in the race.
You simply can't compare qualifying performances when the ferrari and merc turned up their PUs to eleven. When mercedes was 10+ kmh faster in every speed trap and ferrari 15 kmh there's not much you can do about it. And yet they did on some tracks.
Why are you comparing the speed trap performance? Nobody takes any fast corner with their maximum possible speed (no brainer). The only place where the extra power boost plays a role, is on straights. Renault never lacked traction and drivability in the past few years, which is what is necessary for performance through corners (from a PU perspective). We all know that, every car gets into recharge mode in almost every corner and delivers the boost on straights. So how does qualifying performance not credible to measure the chassis performance?

Red Bull was abusing the the PU to extract every ounce of power and bolted upteen number of gear boxes throughout the last season, whereas Mercedes and Ferrari were running cautiously throughout the races to conserve their limited quota of components as they were locked in the championship battle. How is that state of affairs in races, credible for comparison?

Mercedes put themselves in a difficult position and were nervous in using their new wheel rims for Mexico and Brazil, that messed up their setup and made the car a tyre eater, which was a big factor in the car losing the performance. Hamilton was simply focusing on finishing the championship and did not bother about challenging the Red Bulls at the start in Mexico and was bailing out from any battle in that race. There are many such factors that I can list out, which makes it apples to oranges situation to then measure the relative performance of cars in races.

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Juzh
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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GPR -A wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:27 am
Juzh wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:02 am
GPR -A wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:57 am
In how many qualifyings last year, Red Bull beat Merc and Ferrari on the down force demanding sectors?
If you show the races as the evidence for the performance, then that also falls flat as races are not the place to measure the ultimate performance of a car due to various parameters influencing the performance.
With this year placing premium for fastest lap, I am sure we would see the numbers moving towards qualifying type of performance, which should also favor the fast machine in the race.
You simply can't compare qualifying performances when the ferrari and merc turned up their PUs to eleven. When mercedes was 10+ kmh faster in every speed trap and ferrari 15 kmh there's not much you can do about it. And yet they did on some tracks.
Why are you comparing the speed trap performance? Nobody takes any fast corner with their maximum possible speed (no brainer). The only place where the extra power boost plays a role, is on straights. Renault never lacked traction and drivability in the past few years, which is what is necessary for performance through corners (from a PU perspective). We all know that, every car gets into recharge mode in almost every corner and delivers the boost on straights. So how does qualifying performance not credible to measure the chassis performance?

Red Bull was abusing the the PU to extract every ounce of power and bolted upteen number of gear boxes throughout the last season, whereas Mercedes and Ferrari were running cautiously throughout the races to conserve their limited quota of components as they were locked in the championship battle. How is that state of affairs in races, credible for comparison?

Mercedes put themselves in a difficult position and were nervous in using their new wheel rims for Mexico and Brazil, that messed up their setup and made the car a tyre eater, which was a big factor in the car losing the performance. Hamilton was simply focusing on finishing the championship and did not bother about challenging the Red Bulls at the start in Mexico and was bailing out from any battle in that race. There are many such factors that I can list out, which makes it apples to oranges situation to then measure the relative performance of cars in races.
This whole post :lol: :lol: Logic does not seem to be your strong suit.
When you're already 10kmh down in speed traps below that are 300 or even 290 kmh while having the best traction on the grid then you know the PU is trash and there's nothing you can do about. Forget lack of deployment, you have no power in the first place.
Red Bull was abusing the the PU to extract every ounce of power and bolted upteen number of gear boxes throughout the last season, whereas Mercedes and Ferrari were running cautiously throughout the races to conserve their limited quota of components as they were locked in the championship battle. How is that state of affairs in races, credible for comparison?
Despite all this ferrari and merc easily walked RB on the straights. This defeats your entire argument. You also have no proof for any of this, because there is none. Just because things failed does not mean they were being pushed too hard or over it's limits. Funny you didn't mention all the renault PUs which went up in smoke miles before they should. I guess sainz and mclaren also pushed their mgu-k too hard in melbourne this year =D>

Everything else you wrote is just giberish and running in circles, has absolutely no meaning.
You're arguing something that a blind person could see is completely and widely off the mark, while every single available piece of data would go agaisnt it.

I'm f**king done with this whole BS.

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 15-17

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Juzh wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:51 am
This whole post :lol: :lol: Logic does not seem to be your strong suit.
When you're already 10kmh down in speed traps below that are 300 or even 290 kmh while having the best traction on the grid then you know the PU is trash and there's nothing you can do about. Forget lack of deployment, you have no power in the first place.
Go a step further than just getting immersed in stupid sarcasm. If a car gets out of the corner faster, it tends to achieve better speeds by the time the speed trap comes. Once again, pay attention, I am debating the zones where downforce plays a role and there are plenty of circuits with sectors where there are no long straights, but cover multiple corners within a sector. Please explore them and enlighten us with some real time numbers. Don't simply quote a self deceit with the speed trap numbers. The day you get out of self imposed hibernation of Red Bull lacked powerful PU, may be things become more clear.

Look at Marina bay, which has hardly any straight in S3 and look how the numbers stacked. At the finish line speed trap, Hamilton was 279.7 and Verstappen was 274.6. Just 5 kmph!

Image
Image

I am sure this year is going to give you plenty of answers. For once, I am happy that Honda is producing a PU which is closer to Mercedes/Ferrari. By Red Bull's own self admission, Honda is 10 hp down on Mercedes, which is just one tenth per lap. That should bust this myth of RB builds best chassis claims.

You complete post is, simply egoistic and self serving. Someone who simply doesn't know how to handle arguments without being personal, rude and ridiculous. I thought you are better than that. My bad