2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:29 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:41 pm
As I'm not a vettel fan, I struggle to remember the epic drives he has had, other than the 2012 Brazilian Grand Prix.

What others were there in his dominant Car years ?
2012 Brazilian gp is not a epic drive, rather a f$#k up in the start and coming through the field with a dominant car and doing bare minimum possible to secure the WDC
Ok, epic recovery ?


and maybe a little lucky his car didnt break :D
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:34 am
I'dd like to believe it, but to me, it looked like Sainz was well clear as they went in to the braking zone, Sainz had the ideal line, but Max did what Max does, and braked very late, and Sainz did not expect him to be there. Unfortunately for Carlos , it wrecked his race. Max will never let a place go, even if it has no meaning to his race, Ocon last year in Brazil, Stroll in Bahrain last week. He still defended against Stroll who was on newer tyres and a lap down #-o #-o

Max will never learn, he fights too hard ALL the time, fortunately he only wrecked Sainz's race, but he regularly hurts his own chances and never seems to learn.

But for me , I feel Sainz was more to blame as he turned in to Max not expecting Max to be there, but Max was. If carlos did a Norris and just run around the outside of Turn 4, it would have been great to see how the race unfolded between Mclaren and RedBull.
I have same feeling, in the only replay we saw it looked like a race incident, but since it was under investigation I was expecting some more replay when the investigation finish... but there wasn´t, and it was weird

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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:14 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:29 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:41 pm
As I'm not a vettel fan, I struggle to remember the epic drives he has had, other than the 2012 Brazilian Grand Prix.

What others were there in his dominant Car years ?
2012 Brazilian gp is not a epic drive, rather a f$#k up in the start and coming through the field with a dominant car and doing bare minimum possible to secure the WDC
Ok, epic recovery ?


and maybe a little lucky his car didnt break :D
Abu Dhabi 2012... He started on the Pit Lane, ended in third.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:15 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:02 am
The conspiracy theorist in me is saying that´s the proof it was Max fault, but since he´s the protege of both RBR and FIA they didn´t show it :roll:
Or both you and Sainz are Spanish. :wink:
Or? No, we both are, period. But that means nothing about Verstappen-Sainz incident. It was a crash in first laps, it was investigated, but we never see the usual multi-camera replay... Suspicious at least, specially when Max is involved, we all have seen FIA ignoring some maneouver from Max... :roll:

Since your reply didn´t answer anything but only tried to discredit my question I guess you´ll ignore this, but I´m NOT a fan of Carlos, lately he´s growing in me thanks to his results, but when he reached F1 I was sure he didn´t have the necessary talent, so if you´re assuming I´m a fanboy whose rose tinted glasses don´t let me see reality, sorry but you´re completely wrong

So sorry but no, not everybody is as biased as yourself #-o :P :-$

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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:02 am
There´s some video wich shows Verstappen-Sainz incident? I find it suspicious that they didn´t show any replay... despite under investigation...

The conspiracy theorist in me is saying that´s the proof it was Max fault, but since he´s the protege of both RBR and FIA they didn´t show it :roll:
Yes there is, and you should watch them before making atrocious comments. Check out links, but there's also the basic top onboards video. Sainz plain dumbly drove into Verstappen, who even tried to use too much kerbs to avoid him.
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:34 am
I'dd like to believe it, but to me, it looked like Sainz was well clear as they went in to the braking zone, Sainz had the ideal line, but Max did what Max does, and braked very late, and Sainz did not expect him to be there. Unfortunately for Carlos , it wrecked his race. Max will never let a place go, even if it has no meaning to his race, Ocon last year in Brazil, Stroll in Bahrain last week. He still defended against Stroll who was on newer tyres and a lap down #-o #-o

Max will never learn, he fights too hard ALL the time, fortunately he only wrecked Sainz's race, but he regularly hurts his own chances and never seems to learn.

But for me , I feel Sainz was more to blame as he turned in to Max not expecting Max to be there, but Max was. If carlos did a Norris and just run around the outside of Turn 4, it would have been great to see how the race unfolded between Mclaren and RedBull.
It was none-of Verstappen's fault this time. And old/other events have 0% relevance to the rightness of this one.
He wasn't driving too hard, he didn't understeer off from the apex. Sainz might want to try looking where he goes instead of assuming no-one's there. (Or driving into someone he sees is there, which is even worse)

(To be honest I have no memory of Verstappen and Stroll even meeting in this race)

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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:04 am
I tend to agree a little and disagree a little. I think Sainz was fully ahead of Verstappen and was entitled to cut across.
Hell no. They even explicitly stated a few years ago that a driver needs to leave space if the other driver goes past the back wheel. They were like 97 beside each other.

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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mzso wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:44 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:04 am
I tend to agree a little and disagree a little. I think Sainz was fully ahead of Verstappen and was entitled to cut across.
Hell no. They even explicitly stated a few years ago that a driver needs to leave space if the other driver goes past the back wheel. They were like 97 beside each other.
Check Verstappen's on board. Sainz's McLaren is fully ahead before the braking point.
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siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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santos wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:46 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:14 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:29 am


2012 Brazilian gp is not a epic drive, rather a f$#k up in the start and coming through the field with a dominant car and doing bare minimum possible to secure the WDC
Ok, epic recovery ?


and maybe a little lucky his car didnt break :D
Abu Dhabi 2012... He started on the Pit Lane, ended in third.
He made so many mistakes in that race... he crashed and damaged his wing while in 16th place and then crashing under safety car, pitting and changing the wing... and then lewis stops the car while leading, webber crashes with Maldonado...again catching up to 20 sec behind 2nd place and again benefiting from a late SC. It was a lucky race for him, nothing more

mzso
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:51 pm
Check Verstappen's on board. Sainz's McLaren is fully ahead before the braking point.
Irrelevant. If he can brake later, there's no reason he shouldn't.
What matters is when they made contact, they were nearly side-by-side, and it was Sainz who didn't leave any room. (As I mentioned Verstappen was already on the kerbs which is not even part of the track)
If he wasn't punished by bad-luck he likely would have got some penalty.

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Phil
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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I disagree. I think Verstappen was extremely lucky to come out if that without any damage. He stayed on a line and trajectory he knew was going to close and yet he left his foot on the throttle and decided to brake at the last moment which put him there. This kind of driving, as last year at Brazil with Ocon is going to prove costly in any WDC ambition sooner or later.
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hollus
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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@mzso:
I'd like to point out that Verstappen had two wheels on the track at all times. Two wheels on the track and two wheels on (or over) the kerbs counts as on the track (see Norris on Gasly). So, by the letter of the rules, Sainz did leave him enough space? (Not sure what the rules say exactly).
In any case, one could argue that one should leave space for 4 wheels on the track for the other car; but that certainly is not Verstappen´s interpretation of the rule going by past events.
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:52 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:15 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:02 am
The conspiracy theorist in me is saying that´s the proof it was Max fault, but since he´s the protege of both RBR and FIA they didn´t show it :roll:
Or both you and Sainz are Spanish. :wink:
Or? No, we both are, period. But that means nothing about Verstappen-Sainz incident. It was a crash in first laps, it was investigated, but we never see the usual multi-camera replay... Suspicious at least, specially when Max is involved, we all have seen FIA ignoring some maneouver from Max... :roll:
Views from both onboard cameras here:

Looks fairly simple - Carloz turned in expecting Max not to be there because he thought he was far enough ahead but Max was fully alongside and they touched. Max was alongside because he could brake later being the slower car.

I'm no great fan of Max's driving but even I fail to see why he should be punished for this one. Carlos was unlucky to get a puncture.

Carlos should have done what Hamilton often does in these situations - use the cut back to get on the power earlier. That's just an experience thing, I guess.
Since your reply didn´t answer anything but only tried to discredit my question I guess you´ll ignore this, but I´m NOT a fan of Carlos, lately he´s growing in me thanks to his results, but when he reached F1 I was sure he didn´t have the necessary talent, so if you´re assuming I´m a fanboy whose rose tinted glasses don´t let me see reality, sorry but you´re completely wrong

So sorry but no, not everybody is as biased as yourself #-o :P :-$
You're no fan of Carlos but think there's a conspiracy against him / for Max. So you dislike Max even more than Carlos? Ok, that's cool too.

The reality is that there are few conspiracies in F1. And the idea that there would be one in this case is, well, wishful thinking.
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Phil
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:49 pm
I'm no great fan of Max's driving but even I fail to see why he should be punished for this one. Carlos was unlucky to get a puncture.
IMHO it's not about who is right or wrong. It's about who is intelligent enough to know when they are putting themselves at risk of a collision. He was fully passed and any driver with half a braincell would have seen what was about to unfold. Even better; if roles had been reversed, you can bet Max would have aggressively closed the door just as Sainz did. Max however refused to give up, braked later and risked being hit. Therefore I conclude he was lucky to escape with zero damage.

A smart racer IMO would have been more cautious and looked at the long gameplan. In fact, I thought Hamilton did that quite well. Everyone talked about how brilliantly Hamilton passed Vettel, but few recall that prior on the stint before, it was Vettel who passed Hamilton who didn't put up much of a fight because he knew there was no point. Leclerc has also demonstrated an incredible amount of finesse in his driving in both races, Melbourne and Bahrain, when he backed out at just the right time to avoid collisions. That is the mark of good skill and race craft. Simply being a bully on track is not.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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Phil wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:06 pm
I disagree. I think Verstappen was extremely lucky to come out if that without any damage.
True, but fully Sainz's fault.
Phil wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:06 pm
He stayed on a line and trajectory he knew was going to close and yet he left his foot on the throttle and decided to brake at the last moment which put him there.
That's just not true. He's not an oracle, to know when the other driver will do something extremely dumb.
He had every right to be there, that's what you do when you're fighting for position. His breaking was impeccable, nothing questionable.
Phil wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:06 pm
This kind of driving, as last year at Brazil with Ocon is going to prove costly in any WDC ambition sooner or later.
This has nothing to do with brazil. There it was stupid to even challenge Ocon. And they share the blame IMO.

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Re: 2019 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 29 - 31

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hollus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:21 pm
@mzso:
I'd like to point out that Verstappen had two wheels on the track at all times. Two wheels on the track and two wheels on (or over) the kerbs counts as on the track (see Norris on Gasly). So, by the letter of the rules, Sainz did leave him enough space? (Not sure what the rules say exactly).
I'm quite sure it's not by the rules to force them outside the track limit. Otherwise they might as well put the other driver 95% on the grass as long as there's a sliver of space remaining.
In Monza Verstappen got a penalty for slightly forcing Bottas outside the track limit.
hollus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:21 pm
In any case, one could argue that one should leave space for 4 wheels on the track for the other car; but that certainly is not Verstappen´s interpretation of the rule going by past events.
Perhaps. But what he does is what matters, not what he thinks.