2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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dans79 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:55 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:08 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:11 pm


That's not correct. Ferrari was also suffering massive blistering problems with "standard" 2018 tires at high-energy circuits.

Vettel also eventually explained that the switch to the thinner-gauge rubber was the right move.

Proof:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5SiVT7XkAA-OK8.jpg
So you're putting a picture on here and say it's the proof for anything. It's a no brainer that on high energy tracks with high track temperatures there will be blistering to some extent, no matter which team.
I think we don't need to discuss much at all that it has been Mercedes suffering the most with tyres for the last couple of years, do we? They were the ones putting the most energy into them out of the top teams, hence their overheating issues. The thin threaded tyres which were used 3 times last year helped them most.

This year, with those thin threaded tyres being the standard ones, they don't suffer from any overheating issues and probably also won't in the future races. It's a question of the whole concept how the car treats the tyres. Telling that every team has had the same amount of time testing the tyres is a bit of an easy thing to say. As we know, Mercedes has been known to put quite much energy into the tyres for years. They would have changed it on the concept side, if it was that easy (without losing performance). Coming up with new rims was the solution they went for.

Ferrari and RedBull don't even use these rims which shows that they don't have overheating problems. Ferrari was one of the teams suffering the most when it came to putting heat into the tyres in Baku. When the temperatures dropped in qualifying their performance visibly dropped relative to Mercedes and Toto also told that the colder temperatures helped them.
This should also cancel the totally wrong rumour about Ferrari overheating the tyres in comparison to Mercedes.
Are you going to go full tinfoil hat on us?
Months have been spent arguing this topic last year and pages of discussions on these forums, without anyone giving up their ground. So, there is no point in debating this further as whatever an individual wants to believe, he would believe regardless.

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Capharol
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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GPR -A wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:19 pm
Months have been spent arguing this topic last year and pages of discussions on these forums, without anyone giving up their ground. So, there is no point in debating this further as whatever an individual wants to believe, he would believe regardless.
that's why i normally leave the race topic right after the race :lol:

this time i forgot, but I am reminded why i shouldn't :wink:
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

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iotar__
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14310 ... ash-layout
Mercedes to change Hamilton's dash layout after Baku F1 VSC problem
Last edited by Steven on Thu May 02, 2019 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: No trolling please

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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LM10 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:08 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:11 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:57 pm


Except that rule change that gave us thin gague tyres that solved Mercedes' problem, and gave it to everyone else.. :oops:
That's not correct. Ferrari was also suffering massive blistering problems with "standard" 2018 tires at high-energy circuits.

Vettel also eventually explained that the switch to the thinner-gauge rubber was the right move.

Proof:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5SiVT7XkAA-OK8.jpg
So you're putting a picture on here and say it's the proof for anything. It's a no brainer that on high energy tracks with high track temperatures there will be blistering to some extent, no matter which team.
I think we don't need to discuss much at all that it has been Mercedes suffering the most with tyres for the last couple of years, do we? They were the ones putting the most energy into them out of the top teams, hence their overheating issues. The thin threaded tyres which were used 3 times last year helped them most.

This year, with those thin threaded tyres being the standard ones, they don't suffer from any overheating issues and probably also won't in the future races. It's a question of the whole concept how the car treats the tyres. Telling that every team has had the same amount of time testing the tyres is a bit of an easy thing to say. As we know, Mercedes has been known to put quite much energy into the tyres for years. They would have changed it on the concept side, if it was that easy (without losing performance). Coming up with new rims was the solution they went for.

Ferrari and RedBull don't even use these rims which shows that they don't have overheating problems. Ferrari was one of the teams suffering the most when it came to putting heat into the tyres in Baku. When the temperatures dropped in qualifying their performance visibly dropped relative to Mercedes and Toto also told that the colder temperatures helped them.
This should also cancel the totally wrong rumour about Ferrari overheating the tyres in comparison to Mercedes.
From Mark Hughes:

Points 1 and 3 address your comment nicely.

Image

dtro
dtro
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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In a way, I wish that Mercedes had somehow rigged the game so that they could beat the competition senseless. However, I also have outgrown fantasy worlds where solutions are as simple as a curse or something of that nature.

Urrybody needs to raise their game- at least those that can afford it, before we go down the spec-brakes spec-suspension spec-clutch path that is coming down the road. Maybe Mercedes will still be wiping the floor with a red Ferrari flag while chugging down a Red Bull stating it gave them wiiiiings.

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F1Krof
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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Wroom wroom

ian_s
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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door mirrors off a landrover!!!

LM10
LM10
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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zibby43 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 7:20 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:08 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:11 pm


That's not correct. Ferrari was also suffering massive blistering problems with "standard" 2018 tires at high-energy circuits.

Vettel also eventually explained that the switch to the thinner-gauge rubber was the right move.

Proof:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5SiVT7XkAA-OK8.jpg
So you're putting a picture on here and say it's the proof for anything. It's a no brainer that on high energy tracks with high track temperatures there will be blistering to some extent, no matter which team.
I think we don't need to discuss much at all that it has been Mercedes suffering the most with tyres for the last couple of years, do we? They were the ones putting the most energy into them out of the top teams, hence their overheating issues. The thin threaded tyres which were used 3 times last year helped them most.

This year, with those thin threaded tyres being the standard ones, they don't suffer from any overheating issues and probably also won't in the future races. It's a question of the whole concept how the car treats the tyres. Telling that every team has had the same amount of time testing the tyres is a bit of an easy thing to say. As we know, Mercedes has been known to put quite much energy into the tyres for years. They would have changed it on the concept side, if it was that easy (without losing performance). Coming up with new rims was the solution they went for.

Ferrari and RedBull don't even use these rims which shows that they don't have overheating problems. Ferrari was one of the teams suffering the most when it came to putting heat into the tyres in Baku. When the temperatures dropped in qualifying their performance visibly dropped relative to Mercedes and Toto also told that the colder temperatures helped them.
This should also cancel the totally wrong rumour about Ferrari overheating the tyres in comparison to Mercedes.
From Mark Hughes:

Points 1 and 3 address your comment nicely.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5gEwklXoAgHNye.jpg
Point 1: How can he know? Would be weird, given Ferrari should have known this step would give Mercedes the better edge. If Ferrari did it, they are dumb. But that’s an “if”.

Point 3: Who would be that stupid to assume such a thing?

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yelistener
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:01 pm
yelistener wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 7:24 am
Baku Long Straight Speed Comparison 2016-2019 Pole (2017-2019 Telemetry from Juzh)

Straight-line speed almost dropped to V8 level since 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSWQDeHEKhM
Yes, but look at the cornering speed. Top speed on the straight is great for Top Trumps, but it's speed though the corners that gives lap time. In the last real corner, the current car was over 20kmh quicker than the "fast in a straight line" earlier cars. Multiply that by the number of corners and you see why downforce is so important.

Back in the day, Minardi (lacking downforce) were regularly top of the speed chart, but bottom of the lap time chart. Exactly the same as seen in this video, in fact.
Thanks for letting me know, Captain Obvious. :D

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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LM10 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 10:53 pm
Point 1: How can he know? Would be weird, given Ferrari should have known this step would give Mercedes the better edge. If Ferrari did it, they are dumb. But that’s an “if”.

Point 3: Who would be that stupid to assume such a thing?
Point 1: If you're not familiar with Mark Hughes, he is one of the most well-connected, well-respected, and technically savvy motorsport journalists in the entire paddock. He writes all sorts of technical pieces for Motorsport magazine and his post-race reports are best in the industry, bar-none.

He doesn't deal in conspiracy theories or conjectures. He deals in facts, confirmed by team personnel.

Point 3: 100% of a particular set of fans in the Spanish Grand Prix thread last year were convinced that Pirelli made the thinner-gauge tire at the behest of Mercedes.

Point 3 illustrates how "stupid" that notion is. You may want to go take a gander at that old thread.

Back to Point 1:

Sebastian Vettel on the thinner-guauge tire, explaining how Ferrari would've suffered blistering without the "old" tires:

After teams struggled with overheating on the resurfaced Barcelona track in the pre-season, Pirelli supplied a modified spec of rubber for the Spanish GP, reducing tread thickness by 0.4mm.

Vettel hinted that this was making the biggest difference throughout the weekend, suggesting post-race that the new tyres – which will also feature at Paul Ricard and Silverstone - “maybe suited others better than us.”

However, after logging 136 laps in post-Spanish GP testing on Tuesday, during which he trialed both the standard and the thinner-tread tyre specifications, Vettel conceded Ferrari would've struggled even more without the change.

“I think it's pretty straightforward,” he said. “Obviously normally you don't get the chance to revisit this kind of decisions that are made, but I think we did now with the day that we had today, and I think the result is that, if we had the normal tyres on Sunday, we'd probably even be worse off.

“So I think it was the correct call, and it was our fault not to have the same tyre wear or life as other people.”


https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/vette ... 7/3091937/

Next?

LM10
LM10
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:25 am

Next?
I'm aware of the words Vettel used after the tests last year. And I don't see what should be so surprising about what he told. If a team has blisters on the thin threaded tyres (which Ferrari had on that particular track), then they most probably will have blistering on the other tyres too, since they are not designed to overheat less like the thin threaded ones.
This doesn't change the observations of the last years which were that, generally spoken, Ferrari has had less tyre related (overheating) problems than Mercedes.

I've read a person's comment on this forum who told that this year's regulation changes put Mercedes into a disadvantageous position in comparison to their opponents. If it's allowed to tell such a thing, why isn't it to tell that the tyre changes, on the other hand, helped Mercedes?

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Unc1eM0nty
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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dtro wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 7:13 pm
iotar__ wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:49 pm
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14310 ... ash-layout
Mercedes to change Hamilton's dash layout after Baku F1 VSC problem

OMG only wrong-dash-layout-not-his-fault prevented the only Senna equal overtaking Bottas in Baku (let's add question marks for the sake of pretence) ???

Signed James "It's James" Vowles :wink:
It must be sooo difficult keeping pace with the VSC let alone your de-brainwashed teammate.
I would imagine this is difficult

All the weaving, hard acellerating and hard breaking to keep the tire temps up, you can't possible keep and even distanec apart when two cars are doing this

I don't see how the dash could help you though, it's a bit of a lottery surely ?

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AnthonyG
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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I think the VSC should just turn into FCY (full course yellow) where cars drive with a limiter on the whole lap. Makes much more sense and isn't as complicated.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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LM10 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:13 am
zibby43 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:25 am

Next?
I'm aware of the words Vettel used after the tests last year. And I don't see what should be so surprising about what he told. If a team has blisters on the thin threaded tyres (which Ferrari had on that particular track), then they most probably will have blistering on the other tyres too, since they are not designed to overheat less like the thin threaded ones.
This doesn't change the observations of the last years which were that, generally spoken, Ferrari has had less tyre related (overheating) problems than Mercedes.

I've read a person's comment on this forum who told that this year's regulation changes put Mercedes into a disadvantageous position in comparison to their opponents. If it's allowed to tell such a thing, why isn't it to tell that the tyre changes, on the other hand, helped Mercedes?
This is a reasonable post with good, fair questions.

Before I posted the photo of the blistering Ferrari suffered last year, combined with the excerpt from the article by Mark Hughes, and Vettel's comments, it seemed that people forgot that Ferrari also benefited from the new tires after their stumble in Barcelona.

The thinner-gauge tires were used at Silverstone last year, and Ferrari were rapid there. They also were much better on tire life than they were in 2017, where they killed their (thicker Pirelli) tires and were a non-factor in the race.

Accordingly, it's fine to suggest that Mercedes has perhaps benefited incidentally from the construction of the tires, but it would be wise to also acknowledge that Mercedes knew this change was coming since last year, and also probably designed a car to capitalize upon the construction of the tires.

In short, let's give them some credit.

Ferrari knew the tire change was coming this year as well, and as recently as last year, after they stumbled with them in Barcelona ('18), they found a way to setup their car to work on the thinner-tread tires. They seemed to be coping with them just fine in testing this year as well.

Hope that seems reasonable as well.

LM10
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Re: 2019 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 26-28

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:25 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:13 am
zibby43 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:25 am

Next?
I'm aware of the words Vettel used after the tests last year. And I don't see what should be so surprising about what he told. If a team has blisters on the thin threaded tyres (which Ferrari had on that particular track), then they most probably will have blistering on the other tyres too, since they are not designed to overheat less like the thin threaded ones.
This doesn't change the observations of the last years which were that, generally spoken, Ferrari has had less tyre related (overheating) problems than Mercedes.

I've read a person's comment on this forum who told that this year's regulation changes put Mercedes into a disadvantageous position in comparison to their opponents. If it's allowed to tell such a thing, why isn't it to tell that the tyre changes, on the other hand, helped Mercedes?
This is a reasonable post with good, fair questions.

Before I posted the photo of the blistering Ferrari suffered last year, combined with the excerpt from the article by Mark Hughes, and Vettel's comments, it seemed that people forgot that Ferrari also benefited from the new tires after their stumble in Barcelona.

The thinner-gauge tires were used at Silverstone last year, and Ferrari were rapid there. They also were much better on tire life than they were in 2017, where they killed their (thicker Pirelli) tires and were a non-factor in the race.

Accordingly, it's fine to suggest that Mercedes has perhaps benefited incidentally from the construction of the tires, but it would be wise to also acknowledge that Mercedes knew this change was coming since last year, and also probably designed a car to capitalize upon the construction of the tires.

In short, let's give them some credit.

Ferrari knew the tire change was coming this year as well, and as recently as last year, after they stumbled with them in Barcelona ('18), they found a way to setup their car to work on the thinner-tread tires. They seemed to be coping with them just fine in testing this year as well.

Hope that seems reasonable as well.
It does and I agreee with you.