2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

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Phil
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Phil » Fri May 17, 2019 2:01 pm

I think the point is that a car with less downforce will lose time in pretty much any corner (that benefits from downforce), but the longer the straight, the more the car with superior acceleration will make up. If that deficit will be overcome against the car with a higher cornering speed depends obviously on how big the straight line speed advantage is.

Yes, Mercedes was strong at Barcelona at the chicane, but this isn't purely down to Mercedes having better mechanical grip. More so, because Mercedes optimized their downforce through all the other [high speed] corners, they could keep the Pirellis better in the operating window. The Ferrari however overheated them and thus lacked the grip at the chicane. A totally different track (start/stop nature with long straights) will obviously have different requirements to the car. The long straights will in theory help Ferrari's superior straight line performance. Because of less downforce dependent corners, one assumes that the tighter "start/stop" corners could help them better in retaining the necessary tire temperatures and thus not lose that much in those corners.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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atanatizante
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by atanatizante » Fri May 17, 2019 5:36 pm

BREAKING NEWS!!!
As the upgrades of their competitors didn't deliver, MercedesAMGF1 decided to downgrade their car for the rest of the season to make it a bit more interesting ...

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zibby43
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by zibby43 » Fri May 17, 2019 5:39 pm

Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:49 am

All four circuits mentioned by you have hairpins/chicanes or are really start/stop in nature. Ferrari's straight line speed offset to Mercedes is very little (unless you believe the blasphemy that Toto and lately his drivers have been dishing out) but the time is won and lost in those twisty bits. I expect a monumental struggle even on these tracks, specially if they can't reel in the tyres.
The most critical factor you’re overlooking is whether the number of chicanes/hairpins present are enough to make up for time lost on the straights.

There are a few slow corners in Bahrain, too. But not enough to win back all the time Merc lost on the straights.

Image

I wouldn’t describe any of those circuits I originally listed as stop/start in nature, especially Monza and Austria. Maybe Canada. Maybe.
Last edited by zibby43 on Fri May 17, 2019 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

zibby43
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by zibby43 » Fri May 17, 2019 6:01 pm

dans79 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:40 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:49 am
All four circuits mentioned by you have hairpins/chicanes or are really start/stop in nature.
Yep, take a look at Canada.
  • Turn 1 - 160 Kph
  • Turn 2 - 85 Kph
  • Turn 3 - 145 Kph
  • Turn 6 - 115 Kph
  • Turn 8 - 135 Kph
  • Turn 10 - 80 Kph
  • Turn 13 - 150 Kph
I think the hairpin will be very painful for them, as Merc and RBR will carry a lot more speed through it.
Maybe. It's all about the ratio on any circuit.

Baku has plenty of slow corners as well. Heck, most of S2 is tight. And Ferrari were strong enough to get things done there (at least in qualifying), if the execution from the team had been better.

erudite450
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by erudite450 » Fri May 17, 2019 6:09 pm

Could anyone give me an overview of which speed ranges at the apex are classified as low-, medium-, and high-speeds?

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri May 17, 2019 6:16 pm

Phil wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:01 pm
I think the point is that a car with less downforce will lose time in pretty much any corner (that benefits from downforce), but the longer the straight, the more the car with superior acceleration will make up. If that deficit will be overcome against the car with a higher cornering speed depends obviously on how big the straight line speed advantage is.
The key point is that, all other things being equal, the higher downforce car will brake later (downforce), carry more speed through the corner (downforce) meaning they start the next straight with a higher initial speed (thanks to downforce already helping as noted). More speed at the start of the straight means more downforce which can, in some cases, help traction out of the corner, again helping performance on the early part of the straight. Indeed, until the drag hits them, the higher downforce car will be winning for much of the straight and might only lose out on top speed.

But then it gets to brake later and carry more speed through the next corner. Rinse and repeat.

That's why downforce is so important.

F1 cars only need silly power outputs to pull the drag, that's it.
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Phil
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Phil » Fri May 17, 2019 6:24 pm

Your point doesnt refute mine. Indeed downforce is important, but downforce in this case comes at the expense of drag. Straight line performance is itself dependant on power and drag. Then there is tire performance (grip).

What factor carries how much importance depends on the type of track. The underlying argument; those writing Ferrari off because of their S3 performance at Barcelona are probably not accounting for the tire playing a crucial factor there. Using that particular case to draw a conclusion about how the car will perform on another completely different track (i.e. Canada) is probably not very accurate.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Andres125sx » Sat May 18, 2019 10:26 am

I wouldn´t write Ferrari off because of their S3 perfomance, but it´s been 5th race in the season, and it´s been 5th Mercedes 1-2, so this doesn´t look like any particular case, this looks like Mercedes is again some steps forward Ferrari.

Schuttelberg
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Schuttelberg » Sat May 18, 2019 11:17 am

Phil wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:24 pm
Your point doesnt refute mine. Indeed downforce is important, but downforce in this case comes at the expense of drag. Straight line performance is itself dependant on power and drag. Then there is tire performance (grip).

What factor carries how much importance depends on the type of track. The underlying argument; those writing Ferrari off because of their S3 performance at Barcelona are probably not accounting for the tire playing a crucial factor there. Using that particular case to draw a conclusion about how the car will perform on another completely different track (i.e. Canada) is probably not very accurate.
I truly believe that the tyres are making the gap look bigger, but it's blasphemy to believe that the Ferrari is anywhere near the Mercedes. If you believe that the Ferrari's advantage on the straight > Mercedes advantage in the corners, then you're just taking us for the same ride that Toto and his beloved are. Mercedes are NOT 0.3-.0.4 slower than the red cars in the straight line and Baku was proof of it. A tenth? Certainly. Two? At best. One and a half? In my opinion, about that much. Just look at how much Vettel lost to Bottas in their Q3 laps comparison in the last chicane and corner. Partly down to tyres, partly downforce. Mercedes will be strong everywhere and the moment they're in with a chance when Ferrari are marginally stronger, they have the strategy team to knock out Ferrari. Not to mention, they've had the rub of the green in the previous few years.

I will repeat, Ferrari will have their moments and win races, but the title fight was never one to begin with. I feel Ferrari will be strong at Silverstone and may be Spa and Suzuka.
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Phil
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by Phil » Sat May 18, 2019 12:16 pm

I never said Ferari were at the same level as Mercedes. Clearly they arent. The context of my post was in reply to those writing Ferrari off at the 4-5 venues left where a significant straightline advantage might pay off (e.g. Canada). Bahrain proves that Ferrari can be ahead on a track that plays to their strength.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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yelistener
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by yelistener » Sat May 18, 2019 2:29 pm

I did some rough frame comparison of Q3 onboard during Bahrain GP, and Ferrai was indeed half a second faster than Mercedes on straights. And that's even based on Mercedes getting a better exit at almost every corner. But of cause that's just Q3.

In Baku Q3 Mercedes tricked Vettel and other cars, so they ended up getting a tow while Vettel was one in the front punching air. And IIRC Ferrari used bigger rear wing in Baku.

Ferrari is clearly not just 0.15-0.2s faster on straights. In Spain Q3, Vettel was 0.2s faster than Bottas in S1 alone.
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... fication-9

But of cause, the straight advantage is no where near making up their loses at (medium & low speed) corners.

zibby43
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Re: 2019 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 10-12

Post by zibby43 » Sat May 18, 2019 5:10 pm

yelistener wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:29 pm
I did some rough frame comparison of Q3 onboard during Bahrain GP, and Ferrai was indeed half a second faster than Mercedes on straights. And that's even based on Mercedes getting a better exit at almost every corner. But of cause that's just Q3.

In Baku Q3 Mercedes tricked Vettel and other cars, so they ended up getting a tow while Vettel was one in the front punching air. And IIRC Ferrari used bigger rear wing in Baku.

Ferrari is clearly not just 0.15-0.2s faster on straights. In Spain Q3, Vettel was 0.2s faster than Bottas in S1 alone.
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula- ... fication-9

But of cause, the straight advantage is no where near making up their loses at (medium & low speed) corners.
Good points.

Plus, in Baku, Merc were running a lower downforce specification to cut drag on the straights. That of course helped to reduce the straight line deficit.

Whereas in Barcelona, Merc were closer to their maximum downforce package. Where it was worth it to give up a few tenths on the straights to gain substantially in the numerous corners.