2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Schuttelberg » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:32 am

sAx wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:11 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gykAh22nbM

A further perspective from Rosberg.
Rosberg has been taking shots at Hamilton and Vettel since the time he took his ball and went home. He's one of those proper losers who lucks into something in life and then judges people to death. If he could do a vlog on Austria 2016 and the last lap, we could learn valuable lessons. I particularly struggle in turning right on the roads these days. May be I need to look at Vettel in 2018.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

izzy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by izzy » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:36 am

DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:14 am
If you have the fastest car, start on pole position for most of the races it is much easier to get a reputation of a non aggressive driver.
Lewis has the reputation of being an aggressive driver, is the teeny problem with your theory :D

But he does it with fantastic judgment and racecraft. That's how he didn't get penalised in Monaco against Ric, why Seb went off under the pressure, how Lewis didn't touch him, how Seb had to make that extra move that got him the penalty and gave Lewis his 78th win. Same thing with so many of their battles, in different ways

wesley123
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by wesley123 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:38 am

dans79 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:27 am
TAG wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:33 am
Autosport has a write up with a few very important details about why they came to the decision they came to.
  • It was a unanimous decision by the stewards to penalize Vettel.
  • They looked at Hamilton's telemetry, not just the video review to see how hard he had to brake to avoid hitting Vettel.
  • They used CCTV video from cameras at the circuit to confirm Vettel checked his mirrors to see exactly where Hamilton was.
  • The stewards all agreed that Vettel had regained control of the car then checked to see where Hamilton was, then used a second steering imput to block Hamilton from overtaking.
Vettel "I didn't know Hamilton was there" #-o
While that's pretty damning, if that was their decision making process then he didn't violate the rule they say he did.

He should have gotten a penalty for leaving the track and gaining an advantage, as that basically sounds like the conclusion they game came to.
Disagreed. Vettel knew Hamilton was close behind. After which only checking your mirrors after you have fully rejoined the track, sounds rather dangerous. Vettel knew Hamilton would be there, hence the reentry was dangerous.

Although I do agree that Vettel did gain an advantage, this came from Hamilton having to take evasive action rather than Vettel cutting the corner.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

sAx
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by sAx » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:50 am

DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:14 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:30 am
UlleGulle wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:49 am
IMHO neither Vettel or Hamilton would have pulled the moves they did in the age of Senna or Lauda.
In fairness, Hamilton doesn't usually drive in to his competitors in the way that Vettel does or Schumacher did. Hamilton is a hard racer but he's pretty fair compared to most.
If you have the fastest car, start on pole position for most of the races it is much easier to get a reputation of a non aggressive driver.
Hamilton has not always started on pole, pre or current V6 era. In a 1:1 racer fest, he is simply better than Vettel!
Integrity, Trust, Respect.

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DutchDopey
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by DutchDopey » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:08 am

sAx wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:50 am
DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:14 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:30 am

In fairness, Hamilton doesn't usually drive in to his competitors in the way that Vettel does or Schumacher did. Hamilton is a hard racer but he's pretty fair compared to most.
If you have the fastest car, start on pole position for most of the races it is much easier to get a reputation of a non aggressive driver.
Hamilton has not always started on pole, pre or current V6 era. In a 1:1 racer fest, he is simply better than Vettel!
In that era Hamilton also didn't have such a 'safe' driving reputation (I won't use non-aggressive 8) ) as he now has. And I don't mean it as critique, I think Ham is the absolute top and better than Vettel.

cooken
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by cooken » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:24 am

Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:32 am
sAx wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:11 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gykAh22nbM

A further perspective from Rosberg.
Rosberg has been taking shots at Hamilton and Vettel since the time he took his ball and went home. He's one of those proper losers who lucks into something in life and then judges people to death. If he could do a vlog on Austria 2016 and the last lap, we could learn valuable lessons. I particularly struggle in turning right on the roads these days. May be I need to look at Vettel in 2018.
Why don't you address the actual content of the video, rather than just taking shots at the individual...

Wynters
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Wynters » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:56 am

Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:29 am
https://www.planetf1.com/news/ricciardo ... in-monaco/

Racing perspective of someone who could actually race!
Pay article so I can't read it, but is that the perspective that states there's absolutely no difference between having more than a car's width of space on the road and having c. two inches of space on the road when it comes to overtaking? I'd have more sympathy for Vettel's position if Hamilton, instead of having to drive entirely off the rack and stamp on the brakes, found he'd been left more than a car's width by Vettel but had dropped the rear due to his own incompetence. I wonder if that difference is why one merited a penalty and the other didn't?

Perhaps we should ask Kimi and Ferrari what they thought of Max's penalty in Japan last year?

Why are people who want to defend Vettel so keen on sticking to the Monaco incident of three years and repeatedly ignore the Japan incident last year? One of them has far more similarities to what happened on Sunday than the other so it's odd that it is the one that's ignored.

Is it because if Vettel had left the same amount of space Hamilton did in Monaco, Hamilton drives through it and off into the distance and there wouldn't have been a penalty?

GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by GrizzleBoy » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:10 pm

I think emotion and straight denial is the reason why anyone in their right mind could compare Hamilton not getting a penalty in Monaco for leaving space on the track, with Vettel getting a penalty in Canada for not leaving space on the track.

It's also interesting to see people talking about morality of the situation and what "should've" happened and who deserved what.

Because is there actually a way to successfully argue that Vettel "deserved" the win for himself by getting pressured into a mistake, going off track and coming back on with the intent to block a driver who didn't make a mistake?

What is the successful moral argument that allows for a driver to be pressured into a mistake and effectively lose his place, but regain it by blocking another car who did all they needed to force that mistake in the first place and arguably did actually did do what they needed to do to have a right to take that place that they made for themselves?

What is the moral argument that allows a defending car to block another car from passing by turning right on the exit of a medium speed left hander after that other car created a chance by forcing a mistake out of you?

Because if we're actually talking about morals and deserving, whether you agree with it or not, whether you think it should be in the rules or not, parking the car to block the road not as part of a steely defensive move or praiseworthy driving, but as part of clumsy and panicked behaviour would never usually grant the clumsy driver a moral high ground.

Vettel deserved the win because he went off track and managed to block the road so his competitor could no longer proceed without having to slow down in an Acceleration zone?

He "should" have won because of that?

The stewards should ignore the telemetry, the camera angles and whether sebs radio excuses were true or not based on all the data they have, because of that?

I don't think there's a deserving or morality arguement for Vettel side here.

I can't remember the last time a person who forfeit their ability to win through their own actions was declared so absolutely deserving of a win they threw away on their own or that its immoral for the guy who threw away his chance to not win vs a guy who took his chance and was denied it by someone else's immoral and illegal driving.

It's actually quite crazy.
Last edited by GrizzleBoy on Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bonjon1979
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by bonjon1979 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:24 pm

Wynters wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:56 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:29 am
https://www.planetf1.com/news/ricciardo ... in-monaco/

Racing perspective of someone who could actually race!
Pay article so I can't read it, but is that the perspective that states there's absolutely no difference between having more than a car's width of space on the road and having c. two inches of space on the road when it comes to overtaking? I'd have more sympathy for Vettel's position if Hamilton, instead of having to drive entirely off the rack and stamp on the brakes, found he'd been left more than a car's width by Vettel but had dropped the rear due to his own incompetence. I wonder if that difference is why one merited a penalty and the other didn't?

Perhaps we should ask Kimi and Ferrari what they thought of Max's penalty in Japan last year?

Why are people who want to defend Vettel so keen on sticking to the Monaco incident of three years and repeatedly ignore the Japan incident last year? One of them has far more similarities to what happened on Sunday than the other so it's odd that it is the one that's ignored.

Is it because if Vettel had left the same amount of space Hamilton did in Monaco, Hamilton drives through it and off into the distance and there wouldn't have been a penalty?
Horses mouth:

The stewards looked into it and Hamilton did indeed leave Ricciardo enough room, stating: "Car 44 left at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track."

Context
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/anal ... 01/742601/

Any comparisons are entirely false and spurious. The facts are Hamilton had no lasting advantage in Monaco. Ricciardo was closer than he was before. Second, Hamilton left more than a cars width. Vettel didn't leave a cars width and so deserved a penalty.

mzso
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by mzso » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:27 pm

Hello!

Does anyone happen to have on-board footage of Vettel in the incident with telemetry available?


On the incident:
The penalty was totally deserved by Vettel. He was in the wrong multi-fold. Steering in Hamilton's way. Not trying to slow down for a safer re-entry. I suspect he was on the throttle while on the grass. And he cut the track besides.
However I'd like for the stewards to have a more appropriate punishment for circumstances like this. I was thinking of dropping a position (or multiple depending on circumstance)
It's not really healthy for the second place driver to see the checkered flag first. Time penalties like that should be reserved to when there's no better way to punish.

PS: It's strange that one time a 10s stop and go was the only punishment and people weren't whining near as much. Also drivers could often fight their way back to the position they lost.

drunkf1fan
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Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:34 am

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by drunkf1fan » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:41 pm

bonjon1979 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:24 pm
Wynters wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:56 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:29 am
https://www.planetf1.com/news/ricciardo ... in-monaco/

Racing perspective of someone who could actually race!
Pay article so I can't read it, but is that the perspective that states there's absolutely no difference between having more than a car's width of space on the road and having c. two inches of space on the road when it comes to overtaking? I'd have more sympathy for Vettel's position if Hamilton, instead of having to drive entirely off the rack and stamp on the brakes, found he'd been left more than a car's width by Vettel but had dropped the rear due to his own incompetence. I wonder if that difference is why one merited a penalty and the other didn't?

Perhaps we should ask Kimi and Ferrari what they thought of Max's penalty in Japan last year?

Why are people who want to defend Vettel so keen on sticking to the Monaco incident of three years and repeatedly ignore the Japan incident last year? One of them has far more similarities to what happened on Sunday than the other so it's odd that it is the one that's ignored.

Is it because if Vettel had left the same amount of space Hamilton did in Monaco, Hamilton drives through it and off into the distance and there wouldn't have been a penalty?
Horses mouth:

The stewards looked into it and Hamilton did indeed leave Ricciardo enough room, stating: "Car 44 left at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track."

Context
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/anal ... 01/742601/

Any comparisons are entirely false and spurious. The facts are Hamilton had no lasting advantage in Monaco. Ricciardo was closer than he was before. Second, Hamilton left more than a cars width. Vettel didn't leave a cars width and so deserved a penalty.
I'm pretty disappointed in Ricciardo, both because it's plain as day that Vettel didn't leave Hamilton room at all, he had literally 2-3 inches on either side when he had to back off and then Vettel moved over further, but Hamilton left more than enough room for Ricciardo. In fact I think what you said isn't really clear enough in that, Hamilton straightened up the car and wasn't closing the gap to the wall slowly at all, he moved over a little then maintained his position to the wall. Also that gap was pretty much a foot to Ricciardo, Ricciardo's car and then he was 1.5-2 feet from the wall. hamilton could have positioned himself another foot or more further over and have still left room but the gap he left was absolutely huge.

I have no idea how on earth Ricciardo thinks he wasn't given room or that Hamilton was left room yesterday.

Jolle
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Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Jolle » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:46 pm

mzso wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:27 pm
Hello!

Does anyone happen to have on-board footage of Vettel in the incident with telemetry available?


On the incident:
The penalty was totally deserved by Vettel. He was in the wrong multi-fold. Steering in Hamilton's way. Not trying to slow down for a safer re-entry. I suspect he was on the throttle while on the grass. And he cut the track besides.
However I'd like for the stewards to have a more appropriate punishment for circumstances like this. I was thinking of dropping a position (or multiple depending on circumstance)
It's not really healthy for the second place driver to see the checkered flag first. Time penalties like that should be reserved to when there's no better way to punish.

PS: It's strange that one time a 10s stop and go was the only punishment and people weren't whining near as much. Also drivers could often fight their way back to the position they lost.
On F1TV you have onboard with sound (and a good view on his shift lights).
He was off throttle on the gras (would have been a good spin otherwise) but when he straightened out the car back on track, gave it power again and kept steering to the wall, closing the gap.

So he was in control and squeezed Hamilton or he was putting power on the rears while still not in control. But that’s more Grosjean’s thing...

Anyway. If he followed the rules of engagement, Hamilton would of passed him.

So Vettel took a good race away with his nasty tactics.

Hamilton wasn’t always as precise as in recent years. I remember a hefty crash with Pérez, few with Massa... but he didn’t blame anyone but himself and sharpened himself. Now we look at Vettel. All incidents where he ran into other drivers, it’s always their fault... and his fans provide the perfect supporters for his claims. This way he’s never going to beat Hamilton (or Verstappen in the near future who has better self reflection then Vettel)

bonjon1979
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Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:16 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by bonjon1979 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:57 pm

Jolle wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:46 pm
mzso wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:27 pm
Hello!

Does anyone happen to have on-board footage of Vettel in the incident with telemetry available?


On the incident:
The penalty was totally deserved by Vettel. He was in the wrong multi-fold. Steering in Hamilton's way. Not trying to slow down for a safer re-entry. I suspect he was on the throttle while on the grass. And he cut the track besides.
However I'd like for the stewards to have a more appropriate punishment for circumstances like this. I was thinking of dropping a position (or multiple depending on circumstance)
It's not really healthy for the second place driver to see the checkered flag first. Time penalties like that should be reserved to when there's no better way to punish.

PS: It's strange that one time a 10s stop and go was the only punishment and people weren't whining near as much. Also drivers could often fight their way back to the position they lost.
On F1TV you have onboard with sound (and a good view on his shift lights).
He was off throttle on the gras (would have been a good spin otherwise) but when he straightened out the car back on track, gave it power again and kept steering to the wall, closing the gap.

So he was in control and squeezed Hamilton or he was putting power on the rears while still not in control. But that’s more Grosjean’s thing...

Anyway. If he followed the rules of engagement, Hamilton would of passed him.

So Vettel took a good race away with his nasty tactics.

Hamilton wasn’t always as precise as in recent years. I remember a hefty crash with Pérez, few with Massa... but he didn’t blame anyone but himself and sharpened himself. Now we look at Vettel. All incidents where he ran into other drivers, it’s always their fault... and his fans provide the perfect supporters for his claims. This way he’s never going to beat Hamilton (or Verstappen in the near future who has better self reflection then Vettel)
I think Vettel's done. I can't see him going for many more years, he just seems fed up with it and not enjoying himself anymore. A shame really.

digitalrurouni
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:50 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by digitalrurouni » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:07 pm

mzso wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:27 pm
Hello!

Does anyone happen to have on-board footage of Vettel in the incident with telemetry available?


On the incident:
The penalty was totally deserved by Vettel. He was in the wrong multi-fold. Steering in Hamilton's way. Not trying to slow down for a safer re-entry. I suspect he was on the throttle while on the grass. And he cut the track besides.
However I'd like for the stewards to have a more appropriate punishment for circumstances like this. I was thinking of dropping a position (or multiple depending on circumstance)
It's not really healthy for the second place driver to see the checkered flag first. Time penalties like that should be reserved to when there's no better way to punish.

PS: It's strange that one time a 10s stop and go was the only punishment and people weren't whining near as much. Also drivers could often fight their way back to the position they lost.
Agreed with this.

I don't think it's strange. People find it easier to whine. I think this whole 5 second thing got blown way out of proportion simply because Mercedes has been dominating and people are bored of it and they are bored of Hamilton destroying records left and right and they want Ferrari to win for a change. If the situation was reversed and the Ferrari were dominating and Lewis did the move Vettel did and got the penalty the uproar would be the same.

Jolle
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Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Jolle » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:24 pm

bonjon1979 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:57 pm
Jolle wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:46 pm
mzso wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:27 pm
Hello!

Does anyone happen to have on-board footage of Vettel in the incident with telemetry available?


On the incident:
The penalty was totally deserved by Vettel. He was in the wrong multi-fold. Steering in Hamilton's way. Not trying to slow down for a safer re-entry. I suspect he was on the throttle while on the grass. And he cut the track besides.
However I'd like for the stewards to have a more appropriate punishment for circumstances like this. I was thinking of dropping a position (or multiple depending on circumstance)
It's not really healthy for the second place driver to see the checkered flag first. Time penalties like that should be reserved to when there's no better way to punish.

PS: It's strange that one time a 10s stop and go was the only punishment and people weren't whining near as much. Also drivers could often fight their way back to the position they lost.
On F1TV you have onboard with sound (and a good view on his shift lights).
He was off throttle on the gras (would have been a good spin otherwise) but when he straightened out the car back on track, gave it power again and kept steering to the wall, closing the gap.

So he was in control and squeezed Hamilton or he was putting power on the rears while still not in control. But that’s more Grosjean’s thing...

Anyway. If he followed the rules of engagement, Hamilton would of passed him.

So Vettel took a good race away with his nasty tactics.

Hamilton wasn’t always as precise as in recent years. I remember a hefty crash with Pérez, few with Massa... but he didn’t blame anyone but himself and sharpened himself. Now we look at Vettel. All incidents where he ran into other drivers, it’s always their fault... and his fans provide the perfect supporters for his claims. This way he’s never going to beat Hamilton (or Verstappen in the near future who has better self reflection then Vettel)
I think Vettel's done. I can't see him going for many more years, he just seems fed up with it and not enjoying himself anymore. A shame really.
I think his future (with Ferrari) will depend on how fast Leclerc will develop this and coming season. If he can’t up his game it might be game over or, if Verstappen leaves RedBull, a possible return to the mothership for a few years.