2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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GPR -A
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by GPR -A » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:46 pm

cooken wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:40 pm
GPR you are also stating what a drivers actions would be in said hypotheticals as a certainty which is totally bogus. You are not Lewis nor Daniel, so you can only guess, and sorry to be blunt but the guesses of a random fan are worthless.

Even the drivers themselves cannot reliably predict what they would do in a given situation with any certainty. Their decisions are too heavily influenced by instinct and adrenaline in the heart of the moment.
Everybody here, including you, does the same guess work, which in your words, is also "bogus". If you need some kind of fancy realities, then my advise is, look at heavens and pray and don't waste your time here. Sorry for being blunt.

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by sosic2121 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:49 pm

ImageImage

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cooken
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by cooken » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:00 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:28 pm
So a driver can have the luxury making a mistake in wet conditions, rejoin the track slowing down the driver behind and use the dry racing line as the other driver won’t have a realistic chance fighting on the wet side of the track anyway.
The thing is that in the case of the Monaco incident Hamilton took the same line as in the laps before. It was the dry racing line and there appeared to be a space of one car width between him and the wall. Can someone confirm that Ham’s intention was to give Ric a car width space or did he simply stay on the racing line?

Maybe the FIA needs to rethink and adjust some rules. It’s a bit weird that the rules in dry apply in the exact same way when it’s wet.
I think this is a valid concern/question. First I don't think anyone can say whether Hamilton deliberately left space or did so by consequence, that would be next level speculation.

On the rules side, I think it is very tricky. Right now you have a large contingent screaming about overregulation. We can't even agree about what the rules should be in the dry, so how on earth would we ever come up with rules that account for a dynamic racing line that is emerging on a drying track? Impossible to write let alone enforce. I think the best you can do is say "don't impede". However that is not to say they shouldn't think about it and try to improve the rules, since I think we can all at least agree there is room for that.

My opinion is you can't make the defending driver responsible for ensuring that the part of the track left for his opponent has sufficient grip, that has to be up to the overtaker.

TAG
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by TAG » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:09 pm

cooken wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:00 pm
My opinion is you can't make the defending driver responsible for ensuring that the part of the track left for his opponent has sufficient grip, that has to be up to the overtaker.
Which is fair, but the issue is you've got people that know what the rules are and then you've got people... even some professional pundits that were claiming Monaco and Hamilton not receiving a penalty and what happened Sunday in Canada were exactly the same.

So when you've got pundits with their heads up their emotional asses, how can a mere mortal fan help themselves from jumping on the same bandwagon.

All you can do is interpret the rules as they stand and in both cases and over the last coupe of season I think the stewards have been doing a much improved job of that. Granted there's still the leeway of penalty ranges that can be given based on severity. Years back, this could have received a drive through as a penalty.

Edit: Edd Straw at Autosport saying that Vettel left Hamilton room is laughable and he gets paid to deliver that kind of drivel.

Last edited by TAG on Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cooken
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by cooken » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:15 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:46 pm
cooken wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:40 pm
GPR you are also stating what a drivers actions would be in said hypotheticals as a certainty which is totally bogus. You are not Lewis nor Daniel, so you can only guess, and sorry to be blunt but the guesses of a random fan are worthless.

Even the drivers themselves cannot reliably predict what they would do in a given situation with any certainty. Their decisions are too heavily influenced by instinct and adrenaline in the heart of the moment.
Everybody here, including you, does the same guess work, which in your words, is also "bogus". If you need some kind of fancy realities, then my advise is, look at heavens and pray and don't waste your time here. Sorry for being blunt.
Ok fair enough retort, all I'm saying is you have to leave room for doubt. Maybe he squeezes Ric completely in the dry, maybe not. Not useful to present either one as a certainty.

izzy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by izzy » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:21 pm

sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:49 pm
photos
Exactly. Lewis left a space, Seb didn't.

cooken
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by cooken » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:26 pm

TAG wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:09 pm
cooken wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:00 pm
My opinion is you can't make the defending driver responsible for ensuring that the part of the track left for his opponent has sufficient grip, that has to be up to the overtaker.
Which is fair, but the issue is you've got people that know what the rules are and then you've got people... even some professional pundits that were claiming Monaco and Hamilton not receiving a penalty and what happened Sunday in Canada were exactly the same.

So when you've got pundits with their heads up their emotional asses, how can a mere mortal fan help themselves from jumping on the same bandwagon.

All you can do is interpret the rules as they stand and in both cases and over the last coupe of season I think the stewards have been doing a much improved job of that. Granted there's still the leeway of penalty ranges that can be given based on severity. Years back, this could have received a drive through as a penalty.
Yes and it doesn't even matter what the rule is. As long as there is a rule there will be a situation arising that splits people on either side of it. All they can strive for is clarity and consistency which I agree has probably been improving on balance, but there's still plenty of room for improvement.

Shrieker
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Shrieker » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:59 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:49 am
“relinquish your position back?” it’s not like anybody was overtaken by somebody having cut a corner or by going off track. And to make that gentleman (whatshisname?) laugh some more, What was the difference in Canada from that of Monaco 2016?.
Oh, another "wHaT aBoUt mOnAcO 2oI6" post. Look what we have here.
Last edited by Shrieker on Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mistrx
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by mistrx » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:05 pm

There is one thing I can't wrap my head around - the "dangerous" argument. Back in 70ties there was roughly 20% chance you died when you entered F1 race. since then there were immense improvements in car, drivers and circuit safety. Hey, they even rammed through the fkin halo making mockery out of the sport. so now we have the safest cars and circuits ever. I'd personally go for F1 crash to concrete wall doing 250kmh compared to traffic accident in normal car crashing at 100kmh anytime. So one would thing this would lead to harder racing as the racing is really safe even if crash happens.

But what do we have now? Silly processions and rules preventing actual racing. When actual racing happens, we punish that. What is the end state? F1 being safest activity in the world, safer than lying in the bed? Blinkers put to cars and teenagers voting for who overtakes whom via Twitter? Can someone explain this to me?

And no, I don't watch F1 odd 25 years to see crashes. But I also drive motorbike fast (dangerous thing, mind you) and see what Isle of Man TT RACERS do. Interestingly they have pretty much no safety and yet they willingly compete. And without putting the gun against their head. Every year 3-5 racers day at that event (= in one week). Also think about free climbers, base jumpers etc. Dangerous stuff.

So my take on this? Since F1 is currently one of the safest "sports / activities" let the real racers race hard. And those drivers (not sure I want to write racers) who fear of danger in F1 can go and play chess.

Trust me, there are hundreds of racers
in the world that would fill out their seats in blink of an eye and compete even for free in that "dangerous" racing. Now, beat me!

LM10
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by LM10 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:18 pm

cooken wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:00 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:28 pm
So a driver can have the luxury making a mistake in wet conditions, rejoin the track slowing down the driver behind and use the dry racing line as the other driver won’t have a realistic chance fighting on the wet side of the track anyway.
The thing is that in the case of the Monaco incident Hamilton took the same line as in the laps before. It was the dry racing line and there appeared to be a space of one car width between him and the wall. Can someone confirm that Ham’s intention was to give Ric a car width space or did he simply stay on the racing line?

Maybe the FIA needs to rethink and adjust some rules. It’s a bit weird that the rules in dry apply in the exact same way when it’s wet.
I think this is a valid concern/question. First I don't think anyone can say whether Hamilton deliberately left space or did so by consequence, that would be next level speculation.

On the rules side, I think it is very tricky. Right now you have a large contingent screaming about overregulation. We can't even agree about what the rules should be in the dry, so how on earth would we ever come up with rules that account for a dynamic racing line that is emerging on a drying track? Impossible to write let alone enforce. I think the best you can do is say "don't impede". However that is not to say they shouldn't think about it and try to improve the rules, since I think we can all at least agree there is room for that.

My opinion is you can't make the defending driver responsible for ensuring that the part of the track left for his opponent has sufficient grip, that has to be up to the overtaker.
I'm against overregulation as well. However, as a matter of fact the current rules are existing, but the problem is that there is no adjustment for different conditions. On dry tracks drivers and cars just behave completely different than when it's wet and it's plain stupid to apply the same rules in both conditions. I think that's perfectly seen in the comparisons between Canada and Monaco.

izzy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by izzy » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:48 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:18 pm

I'm against overregulation as well. However, as a matter of fact the current rules are existing, but the problem is that there is no adjustment for different conditions. On dry tracks drivers and cars just behave completely different than when it's wet and it's plain stupid to apply the same rules in both conditions. I think that's perfectly seen in the comparisons between Canada and Monaco.
The rules Seb broke were:
1. Rejoin the track safely
2. Don't force another car off the track

The rules Lewis complied with in Monaco were:
1. He'd already rejoined the track safely by the time Ric was behind again
2. He didn't force him off the track

it's not about trying to make sure someone can or can't get past. They're allowed to race, just without breaking the rules

and yes I can confirm Lewis deliberately left space :P . He had a little dart to the right to scare Danny into lifting, but never closed the gap to less than a car's width. So he stayed ahead AND didn't get a penalty. Racecraft, as i keep pointing out, perfect and beautiful :D

LM10
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by LM10 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:49 pm

This time it was Jaccques Villeneuve who analyzed the incident:

I'm not surprised by the penalty imposed on Vettel, because often the opposite happens to what it should. Ricciardo deserved a penalty for the way he drove on the straights, but nobody gave him anything.
Things like that often happen. This is bad for F1. This ruined the race because it was a bad decision, not because we should have seen a different winner. If Vettel did something wrong or something dirty like Ricciardo did, then he deserved a penalty and everything would have been successful, even if this had then meant yet another victory for Lewis.

These are not races, there should be differences between an intentional action and when you cut a curve and then return to the track. Especially since the pilot who follows the mistake knows what's going on. Lewis knew where Vettel was going. He could have been more aggressive, but he didn't.

It is not a matter of letting them run, because this would mean seeing dirty and stupid maneuvers. There should never be intentional maneuvers that could force other pilots to leave the track or be in danger. If you cut the chicane, then push the accelerator to try to lose little time, even if that endangers the pilots who follow you. But the one who follows you knows very well that if he sees the pilot in front of him on the grass, he will almost surely end up wide, once back on track, so they should know they have a chance to pass them in. These are things you know. Lewis did the right thing, he handled the situation, bringing the commissioners to penalize Vettel. He was very good at it!

LM10
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by LM10 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:59 pm

izzy wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:48 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:18 pm

I'm against overregulation as well. However, as a matter of fact the current rules are existing, but the problem is that there is no adjustment for different conditions. On dry tracks drivers and cars just behave completely different than when it's wet and it's plain stupid to apply the same rules in both conditions. I think that's perfectly seen in the comparisons between Canada and Monaco.
The rules Seb broke were:
1. Rejoin the track safely
2. Don't force another car off the track

The rules Lewis complied with in Monaco were:
1. He'd already rejoined the track safely by the time Ric was behind again
2. He didn't force him off the track

it's not about trying to make sure someone can or can't get past. They're allowed to race, just without breaking the rules

and yes I can confirm Lewis deliberately left space :P . He had a little dart to the right to scare Danny into lifting, but never closed the gap to less than a car's width. So he stayed ahead AND didn't get a penalty. Racecraft, as i keep pointing out, perfect and beautiful :D
Ricciardo had to brake by the looks of the video footage. Is there any official brake limit in percentage which tells us that the situation was safe or not?

Because he just stayed on the only dry place on the track, which was the racing line. Would have been a bit stupid to steer towards the wall when the only intelligent thing to do was to have the best grip on the dry line.

Who are you to confirm this?

You seem to have completely missed the point I was making. The things you wrote don't have anything to do with what I wrote. I was speaking about general regulation setting for different track conditions. This makes your point I highlighted in green color pretty unnecessary. Read again.

dans79
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by dans79 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:04 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:49 pm
This time it was Jaccques Villeneuve who analyzed the incident:

I'm not surprised by the penalty imposed on Vettel, because often the opposite happens to what it should. Ricciardo deserved a penalty for the way he drove on the straights, but nobody gave him anything.
Things like that often happen. This is bad for F1. This ruined the race because it was a bad decision, not because we should have seen a different winner. If Vettel did something wrong or something dirty like Ricciardo did, then he deserved a penalty and everything would have been successful, even if this had then meant yet another victory for Lewis.

These are not races, there should be differences between an intentional action and when you cut a curve and then return to the track. Especially since the pilot who follows the mistake knows what's going on. Lewis knew where Vettel was going. He could have been more aggressive, but he didn't.

It is not a matter of letting them run, because this would mean seeing dirty and stupid maneuvers. There should never be intentional maneuvers that could force other pilots to leave the track or be in danger. If you cut the chicane, then push the accelerator to try to lose little time, even if that endangers the pilots who follow you. But the one who follows you knows very well that if he sees the pilot in front of him on the grass, he will almost surely end up wide, once back on track, so they should know they have a chance to pass them in. These are things you know. Lewis did the right thing, he handled the situation, bringing the commissioners to penalize Vettel. He was very good at it!
God I hope this was translated or he sounds more like a wackadoo here than they normally does.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:06 pm

LM10 - you can quote ex-drivers that think it was wrong because it ruined the race etc., but it doesn't alter the fact that Vettel broke the rules regarding rejoining the track. If he had left exactly a car's width to the wall, he might have got away with it. But he didn't - he ran out to the wall causing Hamilton to have to act to avoid a collision because that is what would have happened had Hamilton not braked. Your Monaco example is different here because Hamilton left enough room to meet the rules but it put doubt in Ric's mind. It's what Hamilton does very well - he knows the rules and plays hard right up to them. Vettel knows the rules but sometimes forgets them and goes over the line.

No matter how many times you try to make out that Vettel was hard done by, he brought it on himself by his own actions in his attempt to block Hamilton. It's a fine line in these situations but fine lines are what racing is about.
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