2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:11 pm

Yes, please.

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erudite450
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:18 pm

izzy wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:48 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:18 pm

I'm against overregulation as well. However, as a matter of fact the current rules are existing, but the problem is that there is no adjustment for different conditions. On dry tracks drivers and cars just behave completely different than when it's wet and it's plain stupid to apply the same rules in both conditions. I think that's perfectly seen in the comparisons between Canada and Monaco.
The rules Seb broke were:
1. Rejoin the track safely
2. Don't force another car off the track

The rules Lewis complied with in Monaco were:
1. He'd already rejoined the track safely by the time Ric was behind again
2. He didn't force him off the track

it's not about trying to make sure someone can or can't get past. They're allowed to race, just without breaking the rules

and yes I can confirm Lewis deliberately left space :P . He had a little dart to the right to scare Danny into lifting, but never closed the gap to less than a car's width. So he stayed ahead AND didn't get a penalty. Racecraft, as i keep pointing out, perfect and beautiful :D
Jolyon Palmer raised a very important point in The Chequered Flag Podcast which is something I have been screaming in my head for a long time in F1. Everyone complains about the lack of overtaking but when a driver then has the opportunity to make a move, the defending driver is allowed to get away with some questionable defensive maneuvers (late defensive move - Vettel v Hamilton Sochi 2018, Ricciardo v Bottas Montreal 2019, weaving on the straights - 'Old' Verstappen v Everyone else etc).
The argument that Vettel was entitled to take the racing (having lost that priviledge by leaving the track) is ludicrous. That's not racing. Pure racing, in my book, would have been Vettel yielding the racing line, having made a mistake, and running side-by-side with Hamilton into the next corner. Vettel would still have had the inside line but with the jeopardy of trying to outbrake Hamilton on dirty tyres. The skill it takes to survive that is what we want to see.

The point Palmer made which I'm trying to make is that, having made a mistake (which can happen), a driver needs to leave racing room.

LM10
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:19 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:06 pm
LM10 - you can quote ex-drivers that think it was wrong because it ruined the race etc., but it doesn't alter the fact that Vettel broke the rules regarding rejoining the track. If he had left exactly a car's width to the wall, he might have got away with it. But he didn't - he ran out to the wall causing Hamilton to have to act to avoid a collision because that is what would have happened had Hamilton not braked. Your Monaco example is different here because Hamilton left enough room to meet the rules but it put doubt in Ric's mind. It's what Hamilton does very well - he knows the rules and plays hard right up to them. Vettel knows the rules but sometimes forgets them and goes over the line.

No matter how many times you try to make out that Vettel was hard done by, he brought it on himself by his own actions in his attempt to block Hamilton. It's a fine line in these situations but fine lines are what racing is about.
Ricciardo needed to brake too to avoid a collision in Monaco.

You know, I'm perfectly okay with the penalty of Vettel as long as the reason for it is told to be him giving Hamilton less than a car's width after having control of his car again. The point of when he had control is crucial. One side tell it was right after he rejoined the track and I tell it was after he needed to correct the oversteer. Once it was corrected, one car's width was gone already.

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TAG
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:22 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:19 pm

Ricciardo needed to brake too to avoid a collision in Monaco.
In Monaco Riccardo had to brake because he didn't trust his driving skills in the wet part of the circuit for fear he'd crash. Nothing to do with Hamilton making him crash by not giving him room. It is not the same thing, keep trying, it's still not the same thing. Want a comparison that is the same thing? Vestappen and Raikkonen in Suzuka last year. That was the same thing and guess what, Verstappen also got a penalty for it.

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siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:24 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:59 pm

Ricciardo had to brake by the looks of the video footage. Is there any official brake limit in percentage which tells us that the situation was safe or not?
he only had to brake or slow down due to his wheel spen coz it was a wet track
he was not squeezed off the track or into the wall....he simply was not ont he ideal racing line, but crusially was given enough room.
Because he just stayed on the only dry place on the track, which was the racing line. Would have been a bit stupid to steer towards the wall when the only intelligent thing to do was to have the best grip on the dry line.
that is not Lewis' fault that there was only one racing line due to changing track conditions...if riccardo was brave enough to go on the wet section to overtake then he would need to face the consquences of poor grip

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siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:26 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:19 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:06 pm
LM10 - you can quote ex-drivers that think it was wrong because it ruined the race etc., but it doesn't alter the fact that Vettel broke the rules regarding rejoining the track. If he had left exactly a car's width to the wall, he might have got away with it. But he didn't - he ran out to the wall causing Hamilton to have to act to avoid a collision because that is what would have happened had Hamilton not braked. Your Monaco example is different here because Hamilton left enough room to meet the rules but it put doubt in Ric's mind. It's what Hamilton does very well - he knows the rules and plays hard right up to them. Vettel knows the rules but sometimes forgets them and goes over the line.

No matter how many times you try to make out that Vettel was hard done by, he brought it on himself by his own actions in his attempt to block Hamilton. It's a fine line in these situations but fine lines are what racing is about.
Ricciardo needed to brake too to avoid a collision in Monaco.

You know, I'm perfectly okay with the penalty of Vettel as long as the reason for it is told to be him giving Hamilton less than a car's width after having control of his car again. The point of when he had control is crucial. One side tell it was right after he rejoined the track and I tell it was after he needed to correct the oversteer. Once it was corrected, one car's width was gone already.
Riccardo had to back out due to wet section of the track, not to avoid collision but to avoid spinning

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:29 pm

why not discuss Mercedes breaking Parc ferme rules in Canada, and radio rules....

this VET penalty is getting boooring.

BTW:
Pastor Maldonado will try to conquer LeMans 24hrs again this year in LMP2 after winning 6hrs of Spa 2019 already.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

dans79
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:34 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:19 pm
You know, I'm perfectly okay with the penalty of Vettel as long as the reason for it is told to be him giving Hamilton less than a car's width after having control of his car again. The point of when he had control is crucial. One side tell it was right after he rejoined the track and I tell it was after he needed to correct the oversteer. Once it was corrected, one car's width was gone already.
none of that matters, because the rule says nothing about when you regain control, only how you re-entered the track!

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turbof1
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:04 pm

FrukostScones wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:29 pm
why not discuss Mercedes breaking Parc ferme rules in Canada, and radio rules....

this VET penalty is getting boooring.

BTW:
Pastor Maldonado will try to conquer LeMans 24hrs again this year in LMP2 after winning 6hrs of Spa 2019 already.
The issue around the parc ferme rules is also interesting. So for the ones that don't know, it hasn't been exactly much around in the news: Mercedes replaced hydraulics with none-identical pieces. Now, parc ferme rules dictate the parts have to be "similar in design, mass, function and intertia to the original". They don't specifically demand them to be identical, however there is a certain stringency involved. For instance, when Hulkenberg crashed his new front wing in monaco during qualifying, and Renault had to replace it with an older spec due not enough spares, Hulkenberg's car violated parc ferme rules and he had to start from the pitlane.

Not enough data...
#AeroFrodo

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Shrieker
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:08 pm

Jacques Villeneuve making a comment favoring ferrari. Color me surprised.
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siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:16 pm

FrukostScones wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:29 pm
why not discuss Mercedes breaking Parc ferme rules in Canada, and radio rules....

this VET penalty is getting boooring.

BTW:
Pastor Maldonado will try to conquer LeMans 24hrs again this year in LMP2 after winning 6hrs of Spa 2019 already.
if you read few pages back it was discussed
drunkf1fan wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:16 am
timbo wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:08 pm
mzso wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:47 pm
If you don't penalize something that brakes a rule just because it's unpopular than that's not sport anymore.
Uhm
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... -kanada%2F
A clickbait article that fails to mention things get changed routinely and that the FIA need to deem that it's similar in function/weight/etc and they couldn't see any differences between what they used and what they replaced it with. Fundamentally it's hydraulics, it's a tube with a liquid in it. If they changed the brakes connected to them would be one thing, if they change the tubes connecting the brakes to the pedal with a different tube because they ran out of their newer version it would never get a penalty.

>Apparently it was not exactly an identical specification in detail.

They add that in like that makes it difficult and dodgy, it's not, nowhere in the rules does it say identical at all. It's an article that seems built on the anti Mercedes feeling and trying to further cloud whether it was fair a Mercedes won again.

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izzy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:19 pm

erudite450 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:18 pm

Jolyon Palmer raised a very important point in The Chequered Flag Podcast which is something I have been screaming in my head for a long time in F1. Everyone complains about the lack of overtaking but when a driver then has the opportunity to make a move, the defending driver is allowed to get away with some questionable defensive maneuvers (late defensive move - Vettel v Hamilton Sochi 2018, Ricciardo v Bottas Montreal 2019, weaving on the straights - 'Old' Verstappen v Everyone else etc).
The argument that Vettel was entitled to take the racing (having lost that priviledge by leaving the track) is ludicrous. That's not racing. Pure racing, in my book, would have been Vettel yielding the racing line, having made a mistake, and running side-by-side with Hamilton into the next corner. Vettel would still have had the inside line but with the jeopardy of trying to outbrake Hamilton on dirty tyres. The skill it takes to survive that is what we want to see.

The point Palmer made which I'm trying to make is that, having made a mistake (which can happen), a driver needs to leave racing room.
Yes I agree. there's a whole issue about late blocking that the rules just don't deal with, FIA leave it up to the drivers to have a gentlemen's agreement which is ridiculous

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turbof1
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:26 pm

siskue2005 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:16 pm
FrukostScones wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:29 pm
why not discuss Mercedes breaking Parc ferme rules in Canada, and radio rules....

this VET penalty is getting boooring.

BTW:
Pastor Maldonado will try to conquer LeMans 24hrs again this year in LMP2 after winning 6hrs of Spa 2019 already.
if you read few pages back it was discussed
drunkf1fan wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:16 am
A clickbait article that fails to mention things get changed routinely and that the FIA need to deem that it's similar in function/weight/etc and they couldn't see any differences between what they used and what they replaced it with. Fundamentally it's hydraulics, it's a tube with a liquid in it. If they changed the brakes connected to them would be one thing, if they change the tubes connecting the brakes to the pedal with a different tube because they ran out of their newer version it would never get a penalty.

>Apparently it was not exactly an identical specification in detail.

They add that in like that makes it difficult and dodgy, it's not, nowhere in the rules does it say identical at all. It's an article that seems built on the anti Mercedes feeling and trying to further cloud whether it was fair a Mercedes won again.


Now it doesn't need to be "identical", but rather "similar". To be honest, I wish that is actually the requirement, because "similar" is far too vague and leads to endless discussions to what is similar or not.
#AeroFrodo

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:16 pm

LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:19 pm

Ricciardo needed to brake too to avoid a collision in Monaco.
Why did he need to brake? He always had a cars width in front of him to drive in to.

He tapped the brake pedal became he got a little sideways and had to back out of it. Trying to pass on the wet part of the track.
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Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:29 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:16 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:19 pm

Ricciardo needed to brake too to avoid a collision in Monaco.
Why did he need to brake? He always had a cars width in front of him to drive in to.

He tapped the brake pedal became he got a little sideways and had to back out of it. Trying to pass on the wet part of the track.
Depends on what is considered 'track limits' Vettel was right up on the white line at one point, so if the line is track limits he was defiantly a cars width away with his inside tyres. ( 38 sec here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqhX-ZzPhzo ) It was 'marginal' at very best even if they consider the wall as track limits.

I think there are two camps and no one is going to move from the one they are in now. Any talk will not affect the outcome of the race and probably will not change any posters mind. (is fun though)
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