2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

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wesley123
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by wesley123 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:37 pm

komninosm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:34 pm
djos wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:44 am
Carl Mccoy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:43 am
Bottas 2.0 is just illusion.
Even Ricciardo was surprised he could keep Bottas behind him for so long. He's really far too timid to be in a top car!
Riccardo moved twice blocking Bottas in two instances, so shouldn't be talking about this, as he escaped a clear penalty.
Bottas I think goes too soon in car save mode and thinks of future races when he feels he has little chance to better his position. He's not as bad as people say. Well clearly as he won races and pole positions already and is 2nd in ranking.
People just like to join the band wagon of ridiculing him. He's no Hamilton, but at least he makes less mistakes than Vettel at this point, and is more likeable.
He definitely isn't a bad driver, but damn, is he a bad overtaker. There was no reason for Bottas to take that long overtaking the Renaults. To give another example on that; Remember Bahrain 2018? Vettels tires were done and Bottas was lapping around 5 seconds faster a lap, yet could not overtake him.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Restomaniac » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:57 pm

komninosm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:39 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:02 am
zeph wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:27 am
Just because motor racing celebs agree, doesn’t make it so. I’m on record in this thread as saying the penalty was a terrible thing, and it really was from a racing perspective. But it was the correct call from the stewards. There’s a rule, there was a violation of the rule, so there was a penalty.
That was Jenson Button’s point after it all cooled down.

Don’t blame the stewards
Blame the rule. It’s black and white. You need to leave a cars width and Vettel didn’t.
Wait, did Button support the penalty in the end or not? I'm confused now.
He said it’s a shame but it’s the fault of the rule and not the stewards who just did their job by following it.

bonjon1979
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by bonjon1979 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:14 pm

Does anyone have the onboard with audio, without someone talking over it, going to slow motion. I got the impression that Vettel went on the throttle hard, which is what caused the snap over steer as he wasn't fully on track. That was the first mistake, second was that once he regained control. He does open up the steering to cut off any space down the outside of the track. He could've very easily kept left but he wanted to block Lewis. But, I would like to see a clean on board before I could be 100% on this.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Jolle » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:15 pm

bonjon1979 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:14 pm
Does anyone have the onboard with audio, without someone talking over it, going to slow motion. I got the impression that Vettel went on the throttle hard, which is what caused the snap over steer as he wasn't fully on track. That was the first mistake, second was that once he regained control. He does open up the steering to cut off any space down the outside of the track. He could've very easily kept left but he wanted to block Lewis. But, I would like to see a clean on board before I could be 100% on this.
It’s on F1TV. Vettel floored it while there was space on the right side and then closed the gap with Hamilton there. Nasty move.

RZS10
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by RZS10 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:23 pm

FrukostScones wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:31 pm
waynes wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:12 pm
Are we going to talk about Ferrari hanging Leclerc out to dry again with a garbage strategy?

No? cool
yes lets talk about that, Ferrari made themsleves fools again.
LEC would have had a shot at HAM without that bad call.
They also "forgot" to inform Leclerc about Vettel's penalty who probably could have closed the gap to get into P2 otherwise.............

hollus
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by hollus » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:32 pm

I'll try to add a couple of new points of view here:

First, I think Vettel did try to cut in front of Hamilton to force him to slow down and ruin the pass. I don't think he tried to crash or force a crash, just to squeeze enough for Hamilton to hesitate. Had he succeeded in leaving exactly 1.1 car width´s space there, he would have looked like a hero and kept the position with Hamilton still lifting off as he would be mostly on the grass and unsure of how small the gap was going to get. So it was a valid, cheeky, instinctive maneuver that actually could have worked out for Vettel.
As it was, he left 0.9 car width´s, and IMO, that sealed the Stewards´s decision. One can only measure so precisely in tenths of a second, and this one came just in the wrong side of 1.0.

A different take: Maybe Vettel could have kept his car more to the left (the Stewards seem to think so). But let's say that he couldn't, that the trajectory taken was indeed the tightest possible and the earliest possible point to regain proper control of the car. It is of course possible, but then he was extremely lucky to regain control with the car pointed straight and the outside wheels exactly on the kerb, allowing him to smoothly apply throttle again. He might have been lucky or he might have aimed there, and we might never know which it was, but to my eyes, that corner exit is way, way too smooth and precise to be forced or accidental.

And talking about Leclerc and Ferrari: Once Vettel did get his 5 second penalty, am I the only one to think that if he could not get away from Hamilton, he could at least have slowed down? It would have been a team decision: slow down enough (he kind of did anyways, be it anger of fuel saving or something else) that Hamilton would have to either try to pass on track, still risky, or accept being pushed into Leclerc's view, which might have yielded a Leclerc victory after all (do I even dare to say that it would have been a Ferrari victory?). But, being controversial now, the fact that Ferrari "forgot" to tell Leclerc about Vettel´s penalty probably speaks volumes about Ferrari's concept of "team" right now.
It is not white, it is not black, it is probably gray.

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by sosic2121 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 pm

komninosm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:03 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:53 am
Bill_Kar wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:39 am

That bothers me since last night because everyone is referring to it.

Of course he left a cars width, otherwise RIC would actually be on the wall, there is no run-off area in Monaco.
LoL

I guess any discussion with Hamilton fans is pointless
Well yes, if you don't want to take off ferrari red colored glasses of bias and discuss civilly and with limited bias then, yes, discussion is pretty pointless for you.
Can you give me a straight reason why this move was penalty and Monaco 2016 wasn't? IMHO It's EXACTLY the same.



Can you give a reason why Mexico 2016 T1 wasn't a penalty?

And finally why Germany 2018 wasn't a penalty for Hamilton?

If anyone of you Hamilton fans says that he should have received a penalty in Monaco, I will say that Seb got what he deserved. Then we can discuss why do we (maybe) have double standards, or something else.

bonjon1979
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by bonjon1979 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:40 pm

hollus wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:32 pm
I'll try to add a couple of new points of view here:

First, I think Vettel did try to cut in front of Hamilton to force him to slow down and ruin the pass. I don't think he tried to crash or force a crash, just to squeeze enough for Hamilton to hesitate. Had he succeeded in leaving exactly 1.1 car width´s space there, he would have looked like a hero and kept the position with Hamilton still lifting off as he would be mostly on the grass and unsure of how small the gap was going to get. So it was a valid, cheeky, instinctive maneuver that actually could have worked out for Vettel.
As it was, he left 0.9 car width´s, and IMO, that sealed the Stewards´s decision. One can only measure so precisely in tenths of a second, and this one came just in the wrong side of 1.0.

A different take: Maybe Vettel could have kept his car more to the left (the Stewards seem to think so). But let's say that he couldn't, that the trajectory taken was indeed the tightest possible and the earliest possible point to regain proper control of the car. It is of course possible, but then he was extremely lucky to regain control with the car pointed straight and the outside wheels exactly on the kerb, allowing him to smoothly apply throttle again. He might have been lucky or he might have aimed there, and we might never know which it was, but to my eyes, that corner exit is way, way too smooth and precise to be forced or accidental.

And talking about Leclerc and Ferrari: Once Vettel did get his 5 second penalty, am I the only one to think that if he could not get away from Hamilton, he could at least have slowed down? It would have been a team decision: slow down enough (he kind of did anyways, be it anger of fuel saving or something else) that Hamilton would have to either try to pass on track, still risky, or accept being pushed into Leclerc's view, which might have yielded a Leclerc victory after all (do I even dare to say that it would have been a Ferrari victory?). But, being controversial now, the fact that Ferrari "forgot" to tell Leclerc about Vettel´s penalty probably speaks volumes about Ferrari's concept of "team" right now.
I would say he left a lot less than .9 of a cars width. The measurement is taken to the edge of the track, not to the wall beyond the track. So he left him about a foot of space as Hamilton had to go out over the kerbs to avoid him. In terms of consistency, here is the Verstappen/Kimi incident from Japan last year. It's almost identical in how it played out and in this case Ferrari complained to the stewards and Verstappen got a 5 second penalty.

https://twitter.com/f1/status/104885360 ... 72?lang=en

Wynters
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Wynters » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:48 pm

sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 pm
Can you give me a straight reason why this move was penalty and Monaco 2016 wasn't? IMHO It's EXACTLY the same.
As has been stated a number of times, Hamilton left comfortably more than a car's width between himself and the edge of the track in Monaco, Vettel left a couple of inches.

That's leaving aside the additional info the stewards from Canada have released about the additional camera angles and telemetry.
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 pm
Can you give a reason why Mexico 2016 T1 wasn't a penalty?
To quote Charlie:- “You can see that Lewis makes a small mistake at the beginning, cuts across, gains significant track advantage but then sets about giving that back immediately.”

“And you can see on the straight between turns three and four He backs off to 80% throttle to give that advantage back because obviously he’d got a significant advantage there

“And then about a minute later the Safety Car deployed and that advantage gone completely. So the stewards felt no lasting advantage.”
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 pm
And finally why Germany 2018 wasn't a penalty for Hamilton?
The FIA stewards explained at the time that the penalty was a light one mainly because the incident happened under the safety car, and there was no danger to other drivers.

Whitting went on to explain that the rule was there:- "It's to make sure drivers don't enter or leave the pits in a dangerous way," said Whiting of the bollard rule.

"Coming into the pits, we don't want drivers diving in at the last minute - that was the reason for the bollard - but it's less clear whether it's dangerous if a driver decides to abort having already gone past a bollard which is more or less the point of no return, and crossed back the other way.

"There are quite a few instances of drivers not passing the right side of the bollard when they are entering the pits."

Ask yourself this, what evidence would be required for you to agree that Vettel deserved a penalty? Would Japan last year be a good example?
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 pm
Only 5s for Max in Japan is as much of a farse as it was in Mexico(2016).
But that's off topic.
Oh...
Last edited by Wynters on Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dans79
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by dans79 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:52 pm

I'm just going to leave this here!


izzy
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by izzy » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:57 pm

bonjon1979 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:40 pm
I would say he left a lot less than .9 of a cars width. The measurement is taken to the edge of the track, not to the wall beyond the track. So he left him about a foot of space as Hamilton had to go out over the kerbs to avoid him. In terms of consistency, here is the Verstappen/Kimi incident from Japan last year. It's almost identical in how it played out and in this case Ferrari complained to the stewards and Verstappen got a 5 second penalty.

https://twitter.com/f1/status/104885360 ... 72?lang=en
Exactly. Seb didn't leave any room whatsoever that was the plan, and yes the parallel is with Max on Kimi in Suzuka when he went all the way across the track rejoining and swore blind it was accidental and Kimi should've just waited patiently behind him and the penalty was so unfair and killing racing

Wynters
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by Wynters » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:02 pm

dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:52 pm
I'm just going to leave this here!

https://youtu.be/_gykAh22nbM
I really like Nico's point at the start of the video about the difficulty of pushing when you are in the lead. That's an insight I hadn't really appreciated.

siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by siskue2005 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:07 pm

Wynters wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:48 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 pm
Can you give me a straight reason why this move was penalty and Monaco 2016 wasn't? IMHO It's EXACTLY the same.
As has been stated a number of times, Hamilton left comfortably more than a car's width between himself and the edge of the track in Monaco, Vettel left a couple of inches.

That's leaving aside the additional info the stewards from Canada have released about the additional camera angles and telemetry.
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 pm
Can you give a reason why Mexico 2016 T1 wasn't a penalty?
To quote Charlie:- “You can see that Lewis makes a small mistake at the beginning, cuts across, gains significant track advantage but then sets about giving that back immediately.”

“And you can see on the straight between turns three and four He backs off to 80% throttle to give that advantage back because obviously he’d got a significant advantage there

“And then about a minute later the Safety Car deployed and that advantage gone completely. So the stewards felt no lasting advantage.”
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 pm
And finally why Germany 2018 wasn't a penalty for Hamilton?
The FIA stewards explained at the time that the penalty was a light one mainly because the incident happened under the safety car, and there was no danger to other drivers.

Whitting went on to explain that the rule was there:- "It's to make sure drivers don't enter or leave the pits in a dangerous way," said Whiting of the bollard rule.

"Coming into the pits, we don't want drivers diving in at the last minute - that was the reason for the bollard - but it's less clear whether it's dangerous if a driver decides to abort having already gone past a bollard which is more or less the point of no return, and crossed back the other way.

"There are quite a few instances of drivers not passing the right side of the bollard when they are entering the pits."

Ask yourself this, what evidence would be required for you to agree that Vettel deserved a penalty? Would Japan last year be a good example?
sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 pm
Only 5s for Max in Japan is as much of a farse as it was in Mexico(2016).
But that's off topic.
Oh...
completely agree

tpeman
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by tpeman » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:11 pm

bonjon1979 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:40 pm
hollus wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:32 pm
I'll try to add a couple of new points of view here:

First, I think Vettel did try to cut in front of Hamilton to force him to slow down and ruin the pass. I don't think he tried to crash or force a crash, just to squeeze enough for Hamilton to hesitate. Had he succeeded in leaving exactly 1.1 car width´s space there, he would have looked like a hero and kept the position with Hamilton still lifting off as he would be mostly on the grass and unsure of how small the gap was going to get. So it was a valid, cheeky, instinctive maneuver that actually could have worked out for Vettel.
As it was, he left 0.9 car width´s, and IMO, that sealed the Stewards´s decision. One can only measure so precisely in tenths of a second, and this one came just in the wrong side of 1.0.

A different take: Maybe Vettel could have kept his car more to the left (the Stewards seem to think so). But let's say that he couldn't, that the trajectory taken was indeed the tightest possible and the earliest possible point to regain proper control of the car. It is of course possible, but then he was extremely lucky to regain control with the car pointed straight and the outside wheels exactly on the kerb, allowing him to smoothly apply throttle again. He might have been lucky or he might have aimed there, and we might never know which it was, but to my eyes, that corner exit is way, way too smooth and precise to be forced or accidental.

And talking about Leclerc and Ferrari: Once Vettel did get his 5 second penalty, am I the only one to think that if he could not get away from Hamilton, he could at least have slowed down? It would have been a team decision: slow down enough (he kind of did anyways, be it anger of fuel saving or something else) that Hamilton would have to either try to pass on track, still risky, or accept being pushed into Leclerc's view, which might have yielded a Leclerc victory after all (do I even dare to say that it would have been a Ferrari victory?). But, being controversial now, the fact that Ferrari "forgot" to tell Leclerc about Vettel´s penalty probably speaks volumes about Ferrari's concept of "team" right now.
I would say he left a lot less than .9 of a cars width. The measurement is taken to the edge of the track, not to the wall beyond the track. So he left him about a foot of space as Hamilton had to go out over the kerbs to avoid him. In terms of consistency, here is the Verstappen/Kimi incident from Japan last year. It's almost identical in how it played out and in this case Ferrari complained to the stewards and Verstappen got a 5 second penalty.

https://twitter.com/f1/status/104885360 ... 72?lang=en
The difference is Max didn't have a wall right in front of him, nor he was driving on real grass. He could have cut the chicane and then let Kimi by. Vettel had a wall right in front of him and on his right.

+1 for the Hamilton missing the pitlane incident in Germany 2018. Far more dangerous (wet weather, completely unpredictable, drivers are already focusing on the straight and the corner, rather than the pitlane). Hamilton knew well what Vettel was gonna do. On the other hand, nobody would've expected a car driving out of the pitlane onto the track.

Braking on grass with such high speed would have resulted in a crash because of locking up, and letting of the throttle would have distributed a lot more weight to the front, making the rear loose -> spin and potential crash. Arguably, Vettel made the best possible decision by applying little throttle (listen to the engine, low revs, with slight increase because of going over the curb). Definitely not worth 5 sec time penalty.

In fact, Kimi did a similar thing (Spa 2009, at the start). He missed the first chicane (at the end of the first sector) and blocked Kubica. Even if that was a long time ago, it is a valid example and he wasn't penalised. Most of such cases remain unpunished.

Video material:
Last edited by tpeman on Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal June 7-9

Post by siskue2005 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:12 pm

Wynters wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:02 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:52 pm
I'm just going to leave this here!

https://youtu.be/_gykAh22nbM
I really like Nico's point at the start of the video about the difficulty of pushing when you are in the lead. That's an insight I hadn't really appreciated.
i completely agree with Nico, Vettel and his engineers should have made him push hard and given everything in their engine to pull out a 5 sec gap or even try for it....instead they just cried over it and name calling everyone.