2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:58 pm
For example, Kimi passed Max(with entire car) before Les Combes and braked normally.
Max divebombed Kimi, and both went off track.
Kimi returned to the track before Max and stewards forced Kimi to give back the place! I can't understand that.
https://youtu.be/aZi7gJAXnKI
That was not a divebomb. There was nothing wrong with Max's move there at all. Where Max was wrong was later in the clip where he chopped across Kimi at speed on the straight nearly causing a big accident.
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:35 pm
Not sure Max will learn, certainly not as fast as Charles. Max has been doing this kind of thing since he entered in to F1. Ask Kimi about Max, he would tell you. And Kimi is as safe and laid back as they come.
So first you try to find any argument you can make why it is Max his fault, you spam this thread with all you can think of and in the end it is just a grudge of you against Max as you make clear in this comment.

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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bluechris wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:21 am
Maritimer wrote:The FIA/Stewards need to decide if holding the racing line or leaving space for another driver takes precedence in instances like this and just stick with it. Either you are obligated to leave a cars width, or you're obligated to back out if the pinch is inevitable. Obviously saying a driver must do both is too complicated these days.
Which one of the 2 produce better racing? In my mind to always take care of the other car is a logic and the better option.
Its also a respectful thing to do which i don't except any spoiled brat to do easily.
Don't know, am i mistaken? You really like cars to be bumped off track? What you say?
If a driver doesnt convincingly pass someone going up the inside like that, they shouldnt be allowed to squeeze the other car off track.

But I also think LeClerc should have seen it coming and either blocked the inside line or braked earlier and gone for the switchback rather than try to hang on around the outside that far off line, and then turn in to Max to boot.

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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A point is missing here, IMHO, is that, if guaranteed to not get the 5 sec penalty, Leclerc could have simply stayed there and turned in, as was his right. And Bottas would have won the race. Or maybe even Vettel.
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:43 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:58 pm
For example, Kimi passed Max(with entire car) before Les Combes and braked normally.
Max divebombed Kimi, and both went off track.
Kimi returned to the track before Max and stewards forced Kimi to give back the place! I can't understand that.
https://youtu.be/aZi7gJAXnKI
That was not a divebomb. There was nothing wrong with Max's move there at all. Where Max was wrong was later in the clip where he chopped across Kimi at speed on the straight nearly causing a big accident.
drivers shouldn't be able to drive in to a braking zone inside another driver, brake later and simply run the other driver off the track and give them a bump for good measure. if they brake later and can only make the corner by using the track where the other guy is, then they have braked too late and made a mistake.
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:47 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:35 pm
Not sure Max will learn, certainly not as fast as Charles. Max has been doing this kind of thing since he entered in to F1. Ask Kimi about Max, he would tell you. And Kimi is as safe and laid back as they come.
So first you try to find any argument you can make why it is Max his fault, you spam this thread with all you can think of and in the end it is just a grudge of you against Max as you make clear in this comment.
I see nothing wrong with his comment. What you call a grudge, I see as objective observation of Max's career so far.

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:47 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:35 pm
Not sure Max will learn, certainly not as fast as Charles. Max has been doing this kind of thing since he entered in to F1. Ask Kimi about Max, he would tell you. And Kimi is as safe and laid back as they come.
So first you try to find any argument you can make why it is Max his fault, you spam this thread with all you can think of and in the end it is just a grudge of you against Max as you make clear in this comment.
sorry i just read that as blah blah blah blah.

Doesn't matter who it is, drivers shouldn't be able to run others off the track. max has been doing it since he came in to F1, and still does it now. or can you prove me wrong
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:43 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:58 pm
For example, Kimi passed Max(with entire car) before Les Combes and braked normally.
Max divebombed Kimi, and both went off track.
Kimi returned to the track before Max and stewards forced Kimi to give back the place! I can't understand that.
https://youtu.be/aZi7gJAXnKI
That was not a divebomb. There was nothing wrong with Max's move there at all. Where Max was wrong was later in the clip where he chopped across Kimi at speed on the straight nearly causing a big accident.
I believe Kimi overtook max.
After that max tried to overtake kimi, braked way too late, run kimi wide, a than left the track himself. You find this move "normal"?

DutchDopey
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:24 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:47 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:35 pm
Not sure Max will learn, certainly not as fast as Charles. Max has been doing this kind of thing since he entered in to F1. Ask Kimi about Max, he would tell you. And Kimi is as safe and laid back as they come.
So first you try to find any argument you can make why it is Max his fault, you spam this thread with all you can think of and in the end it is just a grudge of you against Max as you make clear in this comment.
sorry i just read that as blah blah blah blah.

Doesn't matter who it is, drivers shouldn't be able to run others off the track. max has been doing it since he came in to F1, and still does it now. or can you prove me wrong
Look at Hamilton in races where he couldn’t just take off, don’t get me started on Schumacher and many other fantastic drivers. They all have their share of incidents. Singling out Max as if he is the only driver who does this is just a little bit silly. And with the fanaticism you do it in this thread that is not healthy.

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Phil
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:13 pm
Yeah, can't disagree more with Phils verdict on not being able to change his line once he starts braking in the braking zone.

What you are missing Phil is the point in which the braking stops. On such a slow corner, virtually everyone will have their braking finished by the time they hit the apex on the right hand side. After that point they will then get the car turned and start to apply the power again. If you want a tighter exit, you simply don't apply the power as hard, or even still, apply more brakes to get the car over to the right.
There are multiple lines through a corner. A perfectly feasible line would be to simply take the line with the largest radius through the corner. That would mean starting at the outside of the corner, hit the apex at exactly half point through the corner and then hitting the outside of the end of the corner. Doing that and you would brake before you start turning in and you would accelerate after you've completed the corner. Throughout the corner, you are grip limited and hitting the kerb on the outside is inevitable.

When you are at the limit of tire grip, you will not be able to accelerate while being on the corner as you would break traction. Braking, as I said, would shift the weight and unsettle the car.

Obviously, you can take the corner differently, by choosing a later apex (not the corner half way point). This would mean you are trading off a higher minimum cornering speed for a longer acceleration period and possibly a higher top speed later down the track. Doing this would mean you could start accelerating earlier as the radius is larger, but the trade-off would be a lower entry speed. It's a trade-off. Which line works best, depends on the track layout and your car.

The rules aren't written for one particular corner and line through it. They are generalized. My point was merely that a line through a corner is often dictated through the line and speed one chooses to take it. Once you do, you are somewhat committed to it, because you will not brake while cornering and most cars tend to understeer outwards. When you are on a track and are racing, putting yourself outside of another car is always a risky maneuver as the forces will carry cars outwards.

Leclerc simply should have covered the inside, period. Doing so would have given him more options in his defense against Verstappen. His line would have been shorter, hence he'd most likely have ended ahead of Verstappen at the 'apex' and then could have pushed him wide himself.

Given the superior traction of the RedBull at that stage of the race, I do however think defending the position might have been futile. I'm just arguing on the point that Leclerc's defense was the worst of the two he could have chosen and that IMO, he can't shout foulplay for being pushed wide at corner exit when that move has been done hundredths of times and pretty much sanctioned every single time. In my opinion, by having Leclerc not give up and keep the throttle in, he made it look worse than it was. In reality, he was sticking on a line that was always going to disappear.
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Phil wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:01 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:13 pm
Yeah, can't disagree more with Phils verdict on not being able to change his line once he starts braking in the braking zone.

What you are missing Phil is the point in which the braking stops. On such a slow corner, virtually everyone will have their braking finished by the time they hit the apex on the right hand side. After that point they will then get the car turned and start to apply the power again. If you want a tighter exit, you simply don't apply the power as hard, or even still, apply more brakes to get the car over to the right.
There are multiple lines through a corner. A perfectly feasible line would be to simply take the line with the largest radius through the corner. That would mean starting at the outside of the corner, hit the apex at exactly half point through the corner and then hitting the outside of the end of the corner. Doing that and you would brake before you start turning in and you would accelerate after you've completed the corner. Throughout the corner, you are grip limited and hitting the kerb on the outside is inevitable.

When you are at the limit of tire grip, you will not be able to accelerate while being on the corner as you would break traction. Braking, as I said, would shift the weight and unsettle the car.

Obviously, you can take the corner differently, by choosing a later apex (not the corner half way point). This would mean you are trading off a higher minimum cornering speed for a longer acceleration period and possibly a higher top speed later down the track. Doing this would mean you could start accelerating earlier as the radius is larger, but the trade-off would be a lower entry speed. It's a trade-off. Which line works best, depends on the track layout and your car.

The rules aren't written for one particular corner and line through it. They are generalized. My point was merely that a line through a corner is often dictated through the line and speed one chooses to take it. Once you do, you are somewhat committed to it, because you will not brake while cornering and most cars tend to understeer outwards. When you are on a track and are racing, putting yourself outside of another car is always a risky maneuver as the forces will carry cars outwards.

Leclerc simply should have covered the inside, period. Doing so would have given him more options in his defense against Verstappen. His line would have been shorter, hence he'd most likely have ended ahead of Verstappen at the 'apex' and then could have pushed him wide himself.

Given the superior traction of the RedBull at that stage of the race, I do however think defending the position might have been futile. I'm just arguing on the point that Leclerc's defense was the worst of the two he could have chosen and that IMO, he can't shout foulplay for being pushed wide at corner exit when that move has been done hundredths of times and pretty much sanctioned every single time. In my opinion, by having Leclerc not give up and keep the throttle in, he made it look worse than it was. In reality, he was sticking on a line that was always going to disappear.
Indeed!

He gave Verstappen space before the corner and then cried when he did. This is the same kind of behaviour that Vettel and Rosberg (in the past) wine a lot. By opening the door that far, he lost the corner. simple.

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:44 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:38 pm
Agree, but that´s mandated by the point driver decided to hit the brakes, so it´s not that he can do nothing to close the trajectory, he can, he just need to hit the brakes a bit earlier if he´s parallel with another car as in that situation no driver should go from edge to edge as if he´s alone in the track, he should leave some space. If he he don´t hit the brakes at the necessary point and then is forced to open up the trajectory and invade the other car´s line, then it´s still his fault, even if after hitting the brakes he can do nothing to prevent it, he should have prevent it earlier, before hitting the brakes that late.

Agree, once he´s hit the brakes he can do nothing to prevent invanding other´s car´s line, but that does not change the fact he´s still responsible for the braking point he chose. If that point forced him to invade other´s car line, then he simply went too long hitting the brakes too late. Still his fault Phil.
But if braking later gives a better racing line with a faster exit , isn't he allowed then to take that racing line?
No. He´s not alone in the track. Going edge to edge is always faster, but if that´s enough to claim a line, then every single overtaking attempt will finish with a car in a wall or a gravel trap

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:37 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:24 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:47 am

So first you try to find any argument you can make why it is Max his fault, you spam this thread with all you can think of and in the end it is just a grudge of you against Max as you make clear in this comment.
sorry i just read that as blah blah blah blah.

Doesn't matter who it is, drivers shouldn't be able to run others off the track. max has been doing it since he came in to F1, and still does it now. or can you prove me wrong
Look at Hamilton in races where he couldn’t just take off, don’t get me started on Schumacher and many other fantastic drivers. They all have their share of incidents. Singling out Max as if he is the only driver who does this is just a little bit silly. And with the fanaticism you do it in this thread that is not healthy.
If you ask me, to me silly is arguing something is ok because it´s been done in the past. Blocking has been done in the past, but it´s not allowed. Pushing a car out of track has been done in the past, but it´s not allowed. Changing direction several times while braking has been done in the past, but it´s not allowed, and so on... so that´s a pretty weak argument sincerely

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Phil wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:01 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:13 pm
Yeah, can't disagree more with Phils verdict on not being able to change his line once he starts braking in the braking zone.

What you are missing Phil is the point in which the braking stops. On such a slow corner, virtually everyone will have their braking finished by the time they hit the apex on the right hand side. After that point they will then get the car turned and start to apply the power again. If you want a tighter exit, you simply don't apply the power as hard, or even still, apply more brakes to get the car over to the right.
There are multiple lines through a corner. A perfectly feasible line would be to simply take the line with the largest radius through the corner. That would mean starting at the outside of the corner, hit the apex at exactly half point through the corner and then hitting the outside of the end of the corner. Doing that and you would brake before you start turning in and you would accelerate after you've completed the corner. Throughout the corner, you are grip limited and hitting the kerb on the outside is inevitable.

When you are at the limit of tire grip, you will not be able to accelerate while being on the corner as you would break traction. Braking, as I said, would shift the weight and unsettle the car.

Obviously, you can take the corner differently, by choosing a later apex (not the corner half way point). This would mean you are trading off a higher minimum cornering speed for a longer acceleration period and possibly a higher top speed later down the track. Doing this would mean you could start accelerating earlier as the radius is larger, but the trade-off would be a lower entry speed. It's a trade-off. Which line works best, depends on the track layout and your car.

The rules aren't written for one particular corner and line through it. They are generalized. My point was merely that a line through a corner is often dictated through the line and speed one chooses to take it. Once you do, you are somewhat committed to it, because you will not brake while cornering and most cars tend to understeer outwards. When you are on a track and are racing, putting yourself outside of another car is always a risky maneuver as the forces will carry cars outwards.

Leclerc simply should have covered the inside, period. Doing so would have given him more options in his defense against Verstappen. His line would have been shorter, hence he'd most likely have ended ahead of Verstappen at the 'apex' and then could have pushed him wide himself.

Given the superior traction of the RedBull at that stage of the race, I do however think defending the position might have been futile. I'm just arguing on the point that Leclerc's defense was the worst of the two he could have chosen and that IMO, he can't shout foulplay for being pushed wide at corner exit when that move has been done hundredths of times and pretty much sanctioned every single time. In my opinion, by having Leclerc not give up and keep the throttle in, he made it look worse than it was. In reality, he was sticking on a line that was always going to disappear.
Phil, you´re conceding a right to Max wich does not exist :roll: . What you say is, since Max opted for a line wich does include going from edge to edge (from the inner kerb at the apex to the outer kerb at the exit), Charles was on a line that was going to disappear so it was his fault...

Sorry but that´s not fair. With two cars in parallel, none can go from edge to edge. I really am struggling to understand how someone with track experience as yourself can continue ignoring such a basic rule to justify Max :wtf:

That line was going to disappear ... only because Max decided to drive like if he was alone in the track with no cars around. But he was not, it was Charles at his left, parallel to him, and he invaded his line pushing him out of track.


As I said several times I´m not surprised he was not punished as this rule is frequently ignored at corner exits, but that does not change the fact Max went edge to edge like if there was no cars around, pushing Lecrerc out of track. If that´s allowed, F1 will quickly become Destruction Derby, anyone who´s going to be passed only need to go edge to edge pushing anyone trying to pass him out of track. Easy defense...

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:03 pm
No. He´s not alone in the track. Going edge to edge is always faster, but if that´s enough to claim a line, then every single overtaking attempt will finish with a car in a wall or a gravel trap
I don’t understand what argument you try to make that he isn’t entitled to the racing line ?