2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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I wish we could see the drivers briefing for Silverstone. See if any drivers ask these exact questions
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DutchDopey
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:45 am
So the late braking put him on a trajectory that meant he had to drive in to the side of Charles?
No, the late braking ensured him a fast exit. He did not expect that Leclerc would stay on the outside parallel to him, like almost all drivers do, they back down. Leclerc did not.
So now your saying Max had no control on where he would be at corner exit?
He went exactly where he expected, and Leclerc also should have expected him there (and probably did).
By braking on the inside, you are never going to be on the the best racing line. NEVER.
Not the overall best line, but the best line from his position.
Charles had the better racing line going in to the corner, not Max. If we go by your rules, Max should have got out the way at the inside apex, as Charles was on the racing line.
No he was not. Leclerc was too wide for the better line.

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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F1Krof wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:52 am
Remember this will set a bad precedent for the later races and I'm certain we will see a bunch of avoidable crashes throughout, I just hope nobody gets hurt.
No, normally drivers back down in these situations and they still will. That Leclerc stayed there is the rarity in this incident, not the norm.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:11 am

No, the late braking ensured him a fast exit.

&

No he was not. Leclerc was too wide for the better line.
These are completely wrong!

the first part, late braking and a compromised line inside are the 2 things that almost guarantee a SLOW exit. not a fast exit.

the second part, the wider the entry to a corner means you can carry faster corner speed, so the wider the entry the better. Leclerc was wider than Max, so Leclerc had the better line in.

ask anyone here about the 2 points you made that I have just commented on, and they will tell you that you are wrong buddy.
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Sieper
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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What About Vettel pushing Max of track in China 2019 (after the chicane). I haven't heared you about that. Apparently one always has to leave a cars width or else (danger, bad driving, just wish Vettel did that fair etc. etc.). In that case Verstappen was even forced on the grass (where it is easy for a car to spin). Verstappen didn't complain either (just like you, so on that occasion you and him both had the same thought pattern).

And if an outside line that is quicker grants you the right to stay there, why did you not complain in 2018 when Max was on the outside line in again China versus Lewis and was pushed off the track. Max was on that outside quick line and the wider the entry to a corner means you can carry faster corner speed, so the wider the entry the better. Max was wider than Lewis, so Verstappen had the better line in (apparently).
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santos
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:14 am
F1Krof wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:52 am
Remember this will set a bad precedent for the later races and I'm certain we will see a bunch of avoidable crashes throughout, I just hope nobody gets hurt.
No, normally drivers back down in these situations and they still will. That Leclerc stayed there is the rarity in this incident, not the norm.
Guess that FIA have to make a new rule: "When Max Versappen is trying to overtake you, must back down".

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:28 am
What About Vettel pushing Max of track in China 2019 (after the chicane). I haven't heared you about that. Apparently one always has to leave a cars width or else (danger, bad driving, just wish Vettel did that fair etc. etc.). In that case Verstappen was even forced on the grass (where it is easy for a car to spin). Verstappen didn't complain either (just like you, so on that occasion you and him both had the same thought pattern).

And if an outside line that is quicker grants you the right to stay there, why did you not complain in 2018 when Max was on the outside line in again China versus Lewis and was pushed off the track. Max was on that outside quick line and the wider the entry to a corner means you can carry faster corner speed, so the wider the entry the better. Max was wider than Lewis, so Verstappen had the better line in (apparently).


the wider the entry the better yes, providing you can still get to the apex on the inside which Max couldn't as there was a car there. and Hamilton couldn't take the widest entry as he had to leave max room. My wider entry the better comment was in reply to dutchdopey as he/she were saying Max was on the faster line in Austria which is BS.

as for China last year,

Vettel did push Max off and Vettel should have been penalised. find where I said Vettel shouldn't get a penalty and then call me out over it.

the Hamilton one, the 1 thing that springs to mind that I want you to answer with a simple yes no,

Did Hamilton leave Max a cars width...?

Lewis left Max a cars width on corner entry, Lewis hugged the apex on the inside mid corner, On the exit he ran it out wide but left a cars width. Both he and Max had moments of oversteer mid corner and as Max was on a wider line, his oversteer caused him to go off the track.

but I guess you saw that different to reality
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F1Krof
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:14 am
F1Krof wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:52 am
Remember this will set a bad precedent for the later races and I'm certain we will see a bunch of avoidable crashes throughout, I just hope nobody gets hurt.
No, normally drivers back down in these situations and they still will. That Leclerc stayed there is the rarity in this incident, not the norm.
Wow, look what you have discovered. =D> =D> =D>
Wroom wroom

DutchDopey
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:32 am
DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:11 am
No, the late braking ensured him a fast exit.
&
No he was not. Leclerc was too wide for the better line.
These are completely wrong!

the first part, late braking and a compromised line inside are the 2 things that almost guarantee a SLOW exit. not a fast exit.
You can compare it on the video. Corner 2 has a more than 90 degree angle, by braking earlier and making a tighter turn Max had a slower exit speed in the first try.
the second part, the wider the entry to a corner means you can carry faster corner speed, so the wider the entry the better. Leclerc was wider than Max, so Leclerc had the better line in.
That all depends on the corner, going wide does means you can go faster through the corner but your exit speed is compromised because you must accelerate later. A tighter turn means a slower corner speed, but you can accelerate earlier.

DutchDopey
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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santos wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:14 am
DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:14 am
F1Krof wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:52 am
Remember this will set a bad precedent for the later races and I'm certain we will see a bunch of avoidable crashes throughout, I just hope nobody gets hurt.
No, normally drivers back down in these situations and they still will. That Leclerc stayed there is the rarity in this incident, not the norm.
Guess that FIA have to make a new rule: "When Max Versappen is trying to overtake you, must back down".
Every divebomb takeover as I showed earlier in this thread happens this way. And what Max did was not even a divebomb.

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izzy
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:28 am
What About Vettel pushing Max of track in China 2019 (after the chicane). I haven't heared you about that. Apparently one always has to leave a cars width or else (danger, bad driving, just wish Vettel did that fair etc. etc.). In that case Verstappen was even forced on the grass (where it is easy for a car to spin). Verstappen didn't complain either (just like you, so on that occasion you and him both had the same thought pattern).

And if an outside line that is quicker grants you the right to stay there, why did you not complain in 2018 when Max was on the outside line in again China versus Lewis and was pushed off the track. Max was on that outside quick line and the wider the entry to a corner means you can carry faster corner speed, so the wider the entry the better. Max was wider than Lewis, so Verstappen had the better line in (apparently).
They all push each other off on the outside on corner exits, and they're allowed to, as long as they're following the racing line. You know this really as they do it every single race :!: :) The question with Max this time was just whether he was following the line or not. Because this:
Image
He was following the line a bit, and he wasn't a bit. He ran 5m or something past the apex, not steering for it. Rosberg got penalised three times in 2016 for doing this but to a more extreme extent.
So it's a grey area and Max got away with it. If you support Max of course it's okay. For me not great, not impressive or fannable, but not the end of the world either. Just the kind of thing that makes me personally more of a Charles fan than a Max fan

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Sieper
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Ofcourse it was grey area move. Just within the very limits of not being an punishable offence.

For me the whole drive (not the last overtake alone) was fanable and I think it is exactly that point that some have a problem with.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:54 am

You can compare it on the video. Corner 2 has a more than 90 degree angle, by braking earlier and making a tighter turn Max had a slower exit speed in the first try.

That all depends on the corner, going wide does means you can go faster through the corner but your exit speed is compromised because you must accelerate later. A tighter turn means a slower corner speed, but you can accelerate earlier.
First part, Turning tighter does indeed mean you will be slower, as was evident on lap 68. So to be able to gain a position, Max had to force another car off the track, and you say its ok to do that.

If a corner is broken down to 3 parts (entry, mid corner, exit) Charles was on the racing line on entry, Max was not. At mid corner Charles couldnt get to the racing line as Max was in the way. Max missed the racing line as he either overshot it, or decided to run charles out wide (both fine). Then on corner exit neither were on the racing line. The racing line is not out that wide at that stage in the corner.

So at no point was Max on the racing line, he just crossed it once as he went deep into the corner.

As for your second statement, the more width of the track you use, will always be faster except on flat out corners if you can hug the inside line without scrubbing speed.
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izzy
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:30 pm
Ofcourse it was grey area move. Just within the very limits of not being an punishable offence.

For me the whole drive (not the last overtake alone) was fanable and I think it is exactly that point that some have a problem with.
Yes it was a fabulous drive, just slightly spoiled by this, for me. Not ruined, but it took the shine off it. it's not about whether other drivers have pushed other drivers off, it's whether this represents as much skill as a clean pass

And what makes the difference is they're not allowed to push the other driver off the track to get past, unless they're following the racing line. So to partly not follow the racing line in order to push him off is less of a feat of skill. So i don't like it.

it's the thing Schumi had, that he couldn't see the difference between 'being the best' and 'winning', so he pulled stunts to win when he didn't even need to as he was the best, and instead made himself less, and I hope Max isn't going to go that way. A clean pass on Charles would have been better

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Sieper
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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I was a big schumi fan back in the day. I even defended him taking out Hill (which I disliked at that point) in Adelaide 94. In my defence, I was 14 at that time.

Since then I have learned that Schumi was a bit of a monster at times (and that Hill actually is real gentleman that I now highly appreciate). I too hope that Max will not go down that route, but I don't think he will.

Getting passed Leclerc was a tough cooky, It shows Lec is a smart driver, but in this case (as the stewards decided) a bit too smart maybe. The pass on Vettel (that actually did defend the inside, was real gutsy and accomplished totally fair. In fact, if Vettel would have hesitated just a bit with going on the gas out of turn 3 he could have gambled on Max getting FW damage. But Vettel played by the book as well.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/