2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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izzy
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:01 pm
I was a big schumi fan back in the day. I even defended him taking out Hill (which I disliked at that point) in Adelaide 94. In my defence, I was 14 at that time.

Since then I have learned that Schumi was a bit of a monster at times (and that Hill actually is real gentleman that I now highly appreciate). I too hope that Max will not go down that route, but I don't think he will.

Getting passed Leclerc was a tough cooky, It shows Lec is a smart driver, but in this case (as the stewards decided) a bit too smart maybe. The pass on Vettel (that actually did defend the inside, was real gutsy and accomplished totally fair. In fact, if Vettel would have hesitated just a bit with going on the gas out of turn 3 he could have gambled on Max getting FW damage. But Vettel played by the book as well.
Yes Seb is mostly fair and Max mostly is as well, so yay we agree i think! :D Yes i don't think Max will ever be as bad as Schumi - did you hear Rosberg telling how at Mercedes Schumi would occupy the toilet to try and make Nico race with a full bladder? Lol, but ew that is not racing

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:59 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:54 am
You can compare it on the video. Corner 2 has a more than 90 degree angle, by braking earlier and making a tighter turn Max had a slower exit speed in the first try.

That all depends on the corner, going wide does means you can go faster through the corner but your exit speed is compromised because you must accelerate later. A tighter turn means a slower corner speed, but you can accelerate earlier.
First part, Turning tighter does indeed mean you will be slower, as was evident on lap 68. So to be able to gain a position, Max had to force another car off the track, and you say its ok to do that.
It has nothing to do with forcing a car of the track. It is about taking a wider turn in so he could accelerate quicker among other things. Leclerc should have realised that and backed down. Or he should have defended better. T
If a corner is broken down to 3 parts (entry, mid corner, exit) Charles was on the racing line on entry, Max was not. At mid corner Charles couldnt get to the racing line as Max was in the way. Max missed the racing line as he either overshot it, or decided to run charles out wide (both fine). Then on corner exit neither were on the racing line. The racing line is not out that wide at that stage in the corner.
Again. Max did not overshot the racing line, he took it wider (not 90 degrees corner remember) so he got on the ideal racing line.
So at no point was Max on the racing line, he just crossed it once as he went deep into the corner.
Racing line is not the geometric line. It depends on more factors than the geometric structure of a corner alone. For Max the last part of the corner he was fully on his ideal racing line after putting the apex further in the corner, which he did because of the > 90 degree turn.
As for your second statement, the more width of the track you use, will always be faster except on flat out corners if you can hug the inside line without scrubbing speed.
This is also not true, this guy explains it; the difference between the geometric line and the ideal racing line (The video will start at the moment he is explaining this corner situation.). The only difference is, that Max did not start out wide which would be totally ideal.

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Sieper
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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izzy wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:17 pm
Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:01 pm
I was a big schumi fan back in the day. I even defended him taking out Hill (which I disliked at that point) in Adelaide 94. In my defence, I was 14 at that time.

Since then I have learned that Schumi was a bit of a monster at times (and that Hill actually is real gentleman that I now highly appreciate). I too hope that Max will not go down that route, but I don't think he will.

Getting passed Leclerc was a tough cooky, It shows Lec is a smart driver, but in this case (as the stewards decided) a bit too smart maybe. The pass on Vettel (that actually did defend the inside, was real gutsy and accomplished totally fair. In fact, if Vettel would have hesitated just a bit with going on the gas out of turn 3 he could have gambled on Max getting FW damage. But Vettel played by the book as well.
Yes Seb is mostly fair and Max mostly is as well, so yay we agree i think! :D Yes i don't think Max will ever be as bad as Schumi - did you hear Rosberg telling how at Mercedes Schumi would occupy the toilet to try and make Nico race with a full bladder? Lol, but ew that is not racing
I think I have heard that before indeed (but thanks for putting that image in my head :D ).
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:22 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:59 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:54 am
You can compare it on the video. Corner 2 has a more than 90 degree angle, by braking earlier and making a tighter turn Max had a slower exit speed in the first try.

That all depends on the corner, going wide does means you can go faster through the corner but your exit speed is compromised because you must accelerate later. A tighter turn means a slower corner speed, but you can accelerate earlier.
First part, Turning tighter does indeed mean you will be slower, as was evident on lap 68. So to be able to gain a position, Max had to force another car off the track, and you say its ok to do that.
It has nothing to do with forcing a car of the track. It is about taking a wider turn in so he could accelerate quicker among other things. Leclerc should have realised that and backed down. Or he should have defended better. T
If a corner is broken down to 3 parts (entry, mid corner, exit) Charles was on the racing line on entry, Max was not. At mid corner Charles couldnt get to the racing line as Max was in the way. Max missed the racing line as he either overshot it, or decided to run charles out wide (both fine). Then on corner exit neither were on the racing line. The racing line is not out that wide at that stage in the corner.
Again. Max did not overshot the racing line, he took it wider (not 90 degrees corner remember) so he got on the ideal racing line.
So at no point was Max on the racing line, he just crossed it once as he went deep into the corner.
Racing line is not the geometric line. It depends on more factors than the geometric structure of a corner alone. For Max the last part of the corner he was fully on his ideal racing line after putting the apex further in the corner, which he did because of the > 90 degree turn.
As for your second statement, the more width of the track you use, will always be faster except on flat out corners if you can hug the inside line without scrubbing speed.
This is also not true, this guy explains it; the difference between the geometric line and the ideal racing line (The video will start at the moment he is explaining this corner situation.). The only difference is, that Max did not start out wide which would be totally ideal.
https://youtu.be/aZlOkt1oU2k?t=215
can we discuss this in a live chat, as you are just ignoring my points and talking irrelevant garbage to try and avoid my questions and statements.
First you start of posting about how Max was on the racing line so was allowed to push charles off. now you say theres no such thing as a racing line. Max was never on the racing line other than when he crossed it before the inside apex. He was on his line which was dictated by the fact he braked later, on a tighter line. Do you race at all? in the real world or virtual world?
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:10 pm
can we discuss this in a live chat, as you are just ignoring my points and talking irrelevant garbage to try and avoid my questions and statements.
First you start of posting about how Max was on the racing line so was allowed to push charles off. now you say theres no such thing as a racing line.
Sure we can and I see you are neglecting my points. I never said there is no such thing as a racing line, please point out where I say that ? I say there is a difference between the geometric line (which seems like you think the only line there is) and the ideal racing line.
Max was never on the racing line other than when he crossed it before the inside apex. He was on his line which was dictated by the fact he braked later, on a tighter line. Do you race at all? in the real world or virtual world?
Please look @ the video and you will get explained why he was on his ideal racing line after braking late.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:23 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:10 pm
can we discuss this in a live chat, as you are just ignoring my points and talking irrelevant garbage to try and avoid my questions and statements.
First you start of posting about how Max was on the racing line so was allowed to push charles off. now you say theres no such thing as a racing line.
Sure we can and I see you are neglecting my points. I never said there is no such thing as a racing line, please point out where I say that ? I say there is a difference between the geometric line (which seems like you think the only line there is) and the ideal racing line.
Max was never on the racing line other than when he crossed it before the inside apex. He was on his line which was dictated by the fact he braked later, on a tighter line. Do you race at all? in the real world or virtual world?
Please look @ the video and you will get explained why he was on his ideal racing line after braking late.
The video has no bearing on the situation in Austria, It shows there are multiple lines through a corner. Basically the larger radius through a turn, and the 'square it off' as I would call it for a better exit. Neither are lines in which Max was on.

Image

Here are those 2 lines put in to that corner, the yellow cross marks where Max pushed Charles off. All I'm getting at is, the whole 'he was on the racing line' so Charles should have got out the way is utter rubbish, as Max was never on the or any alternate racing line. He went in shallow, run it deep, then pushed Charles off as he knew Charles would have out accelerated him due the Ferrari PU.
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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There is a general maxim in racing that the guy on the inside "owns" the corner. He gets to decide what plays out and a brave driver is required to try to muscle it out around the outside. The inside driver is not required to leave room on the exit as some like to think.

Max was wrong in Brazil against Ocon. Ocon had the inside line and Max just drove across in to him. Max was in the wrong then even though he was leading - the other driver is allowed to unlap himself and he had the inside line on the corner.

See, being on the inside is the important thing. That's why most drivers defend by taking the inside line on the approach to a corner. Have the inside line, own the corner. Charles ceded the corner by not covering the inside line. He thought he'd be able to muscle it out around the outside a second time. Max changed his line subtly and Charles's plan failed. At that point he should have cut back.

Note, of course, that one has to take the corner. Rosberg's childish, hamfisted attempt to block Hamilton in Austria was not allowed because he wasn't taking the corner. Had Max replicated this approach (which he didn't) then he'd have been wrong in Austria too. Subtle differences, but then subtle differences are what make things interesting.
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:34 pm
The video has no bearing on the situation in Austria, It shows there are multiple lines through a corner. Basically the larger radius through a turn, and the 'square it off' as I would call it for a better exit. Neither are lines in which Max was on.
Please do me a favour and watch it, your statement has no relationship to the video.

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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A lot of people will probably bust a vein thinking this is not a racing incident if they watch any motorcycle racing, or just go to an event at their local tracks...

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:44 pm
There is a general maxim in racing that the guy on the inside "owns" the corner. He gets to decide what plays out and a brave driver is required to try to muscle it out around the outside. The inside driver is not required to leave room on the exit as some like to think.

Max was wrong in Brazil against Ocon. Ocon had the inside line and Max just drove across in to him. Max was in the wrong then even though he was leading - the other driver is allowed to unlap himself and he had the inside line on the corner.

See, being on the inside is the important thing. That's why most drivers defend by taking the inside line on the approach to a corner. Have the inside line, own the corner. Charles ceded the corner by not covering the inside line. He thought he'd be able to muscle it out around the outside a second time. Max changed his line subtly and Charles's plan failed. At that point he should have cut back.

Note, of course, that one has to take the corner. Rosberg's childish, hamfisted attempt to block Hamilton in Austria was not allowed because he wasn't taking the corner. Had Max replicated this approach (which he didn't) then he'd have been wrong in Austria too. Subtle differences, but then subtle differences are what make things interesting.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:54 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:34 pm
The video has no bearing on the situation in Austria, It shows there are multiple lines through a corner. Basically the larger radius through a turn, and the 'square it off' as I would call it for a better exit. Neither are lines in which Max was on.
Please do me a favour and watch it, your statement has no relationship to the video.
done that. twice now. so please explain how Max was on either of those lines. as I pointed out in that quick diagram, Max wasnt on either of the lines you are banging on about.
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:35 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:54 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:34 pm
The video has no bearing on the situation in Austria, It shows there are multiple lines through a corner. Basically the larger radius through a turn, and the 'square it off' as I would call it for a better exit. Neither are lines in which Max was on.
Please do me a favour and watch it, your statement has no relationship to the video.
done that. twice now. so please explain how Max was on either of those lines. as I pointed out in that quick diagram, Max wasnt on either of the lines you are banging on about.
- Braking late, as said in the video (which you objected to and said was not part of the racing line) .
- Turning tight and slow, to prepare for the exit speed (which you objected to and said was not part of the racing line).
- Going out wide at the exit and getting speed because of early acceleration. (which you objected to and said was not part of the racing line).

All these points are explained in the video and oppose the geometrical line you suggest is the fastest.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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I didnt say max didnt brake late.
Max didnt turn tight, he never got near the inside of the corner.
Going out wide, he did, but nowhere like the ideal racing line, he was out wide way to early. as i pointed out in my image.

as i said, the video has no relevance to maxs move on Charles
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:08 pm
I didnt say max didnt brake late.

You said braking late was not part of the racing, it was, as explained.
Max didnt turn tight, he never got near the inside of the corner.
Tight as opposed to the geometric line.
Going out wide, he did, but nowhere like the ideal racing line, he was out wide way to early. as i pointed out in my image.
He turns and straightens as fast as the road ahead allows it his wheel, that is the ideal racing line and has nothing to do with going wide early.
as i said, the video has no relevance to maxs move on Charles
You don't want it to, that is something completely different.

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:37 pm
He turns and straightens as fast as the road ahead allows it his wheel, that is the ideal racing line and has nothing to do with going wide early.
exactly, and ignored the fact there was a car side by side.

Image

here are the 2 lines that your video talks of in blue and red. and the orange is max's line. as I said, he was never on those lines, but you can't see that.

you said Max can take the racing line and shove someone off, even if that were true, he wasn't on the racing line. thats my point.
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