2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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dans79
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:49 pm
exactly, and ignored the fact there was a car side by side.
You seem to be the only one doing the ignoring. Several of us have pointed out that this has been allowed (within bounds) for years!

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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allowed if someone was taking the racing line I believe you all said?
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rogazilla
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Let's also talk about Charles's line which is much wider on lap 69 than lap 68. It is not as if he took the same line on lap 69. The screenshot posted many time shows they are side by side but look at Charles' car's position in that corner and if he is to stay on the track he has to encroach the space Max is already occupying. Max didn't have to 'push him out' all he has to do is maintain the space he has gotten.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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rogazilla wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:01 pm
Let's also talk about Charles's line which is much wider on lap 69 than lap 68. It is not as if he took the same line on lap 69. The screenshot posted many time shows they are side by side but look at Charles' car's position in that corner and if he is to stay on the track he has to encroach the space Max is already occupying. Max didn't have to 'push him out' all he has to do is maintain the space he has gotten.
I see what you are saying, but at the point of contact, who had free space to the side of their car?

Also the cars were dead level and both off the racing line. so neither have any more rights than the other. The difference was Max had a good 10m of space to his right, Charles had 0m space to his left.

unless I'm seeing things.
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bluechris
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Guys i think you miss the obvious, do you like a driver to push someone else offline? This is bravery? Ballsy? Its respectful? It produces show? Or its risk for himself and the others? That's the key question.
If any of you have raced in real or gaming world you will know that no matter where the racing lines are, the inside driver hold the keys to the turn. He could had not straighten his wheels earlier or he could had stayed off throttle a fraction of time more and both of them could had make the turn.
As for the correct racing line, none of the 2 turned in any logical racing line.
The point is, it is cool to not take care the outside car? Thats the point.
Again in my fair world max supposedly had to take care leclerc but there seems to be no real rule to that so max is ok.
Don't misunderstood me, im not max hater or something, i really like the guy its just what you seed some times it grows back on you in future and the others after this incident now they know, "i dive in and i will be fine no matter where the other guy will go"

DutchDopey
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:49 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:37 pm
He turns and straightens as fast as the road ahead allows it his wheel, that is the ideal racing line and has nothing to do with going wide early.
exactly, and ignored the fact there was a car side by side.

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=0b9 ... 95a6a317ab

here are the 2 lines that your video talks of in blue and red. and the orange is max's line. as I said, he was never on those lines, but you can't see that.

you said Max can take the racing line and shove off, even if that were true, he wasn't on the racing line. thats my point.
Now compare your drawing to the actual drawing of the fastest line in the video, here is the screenshot. To which line compares it the most from your drawing (spoiler, it isn't your red or blue line)?
Image

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:24 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:49 pm
DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:37 pm
He turns and straightens as fast as the road ahead allows it his wheel, that is the ideal racing line and has nothing to do with going wide early.
exactly, and ignored the fact there was a car side by side.

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=0b9 ... 95a6a317ab

here are the 2 lines that your video talks of in blue and red. and the orange is max's line. as I said, he was never on those lines, but you can't see that.

you said Max can take the racing line and shove off, even if that were true, he wasn't on the racing line. thats my point.
Now compare your drawing to the actual drawing of the fastest line in the video, here is the screenshot. To which line compares it the most from your drawing (spoiler, it isn't your red or blue line)?
Image
and here marked by the blue cross is where they made contact, so what Max was doing out there is beyond me. he wasn't on any of your racing lines. surely you can see that? if Max takes the line you say, the orange line, he shluld have been miles away from where they bumped.

Image
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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The big point I'm making is, nearly everyone said Max had the right to push Charles off, they were side by side but as Max was on the racing line, he has the right to push Charles off. is what people were saying.

The fact is, Max was not on any racing line. So therefore according to most he would then give up the right to push Charles off as he is not on the racing line that would have given him that right.

was he on the inside, yes.
was he on the racing line, no.
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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F1Krof wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:31 am
I believe Max deserved a penalty, it was a blatant forcing another driver off the track. This just shows that peer (fan) pressure from the last two occasions has gotten into the judges head.

I strongly believe had the Vettel Ham incident hadn't gone the way it went, for sure they would have penalised Max.
Disagree, you´re assuming Stewards consistency, but Stewards are different at each GP wich is the reason there´s so many contradictions when comparing sanctions

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:28 am
What About Vettel pushing Max of track in China 2019 (after the chicane). I haven't heared you about that.
Did you bother to listen?

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:37 pm
and here marked by the blue cross is where they made contact, so what Max was doing out there is beyond me. he wasn't on any of your racing lines. surely you can see that? if Max takes the line you say, the orange line, he shluld have been miles away from where they bumped.
You do understand that these are not the factual racing lines (I use them for indication), and your blue cross is just something you make up yourself. You do understand that right ?

First you define a racing line as the geometric line, now you start creating your own fantasy lines, where does this stop Nathan ?

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:51 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:37 pm
and here marked by the blue cross is where they made contact, so what Max was doing out there is beyond me. he wasn't on any of your racing lines. surely you can see that? if Max takes the line you say, the orange line, he shluld have been miles away from where they bumped.
You do understand that these are not the factual racing lines (I use them for indication), and your blue cross is just something you make up yourself. You do understand that right ?

First you define a racing line as the geometric line, now you start creating your own fantasy lines, where does this stop Nathan ?
the blue cross is a rough idea, as the corner isnt the real corner. my previous image with the cross here, is exactly where Max ran Charles off. and its nowhere near any racing line my good friend.

Image
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Aesop
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:44 pm
There is a general maxim in racing that the guy on the inside "owns" the corner. He gets to decide what plays out and a brave driver is required to try to muscle it out around the outside. The inside driver is not required to leave room on the exit as some like to think.

Max was wrong in Brazil against Ocon. Ocon had the inside line and Max just drove across in to him. Max was in the wrong then even though he was leading - the other driver is allowed to unlap himself and he had the inside line on the corner.

See, being on the inside is the important thing. That's why most drivers defend by taking the inside line on the approach to a corner. Have the inside line, own the corner. Charles ceded the corner by not covering the inside line. He thought he'd be able to muscle it out around the outside a second time. Max changed his line subtly and Charles's plan failed. At that point he should have cut back.

Note, of course, that one has to take the corner. Rosberg's childish, hamfisted attempt to block Hamilton in Austria was not allowed because he wasn't taking the corner. Had Max replicated this approach (which he didn't) then he'd have been wrong in Austria too. Subtle differences, but then subtle differences are what make things interesting.
Exactly, except that Ocon did have the insideline, but was behind Max.
Last edited by Aesop on Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:55 am
No, he decided to brake later (putting the apex for him further) so he could start accelerating earlier. That was for him from that point the fastest line (racing line)

So now there are different racing lines? What about that basic stuff you were talking about some posts back stating racing lines do not change if there are two cars in parallel?

DutchDopey wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:32 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:47 pm
Racing line is different if there's one car or if there are two in parallel [...]
A racing line is not different because someone is driving parallel, it has absolutely nothing to do with that. Come on, this is basic stuff.
This is enough for me, your nickname should have been enough to realize you will never accept Max did something wrong, my bad. Now you can continue moving the goalposts all you want, I´ll just ignore you

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:52 pm
allowed if someone was taking the racing line I believe you all said?
Either taking the racing line or being in front of the other car. None of them was the case in that incident. Yet, it was ok for Max to push Leclerc out. For whatever reason. If it’s enough to be on the inside in order to avoid a penalty, absolutely regardless of being on the racing line or in front of the opponent, then it’s not racing anymore. It’s bumber car or ping pong.