2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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izzy wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:25 am
turbof1 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:40 am
izzy wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:24 am

why don't you see this as a gap? i mean, how much more gap-like could it be? :o
https://66.media.tumblr.com/25e2c8eae65 ... 1_1280.png
2-3 frames later that gap is not there anymore, and Vettel has not set even a leading edge of his front wing alongside Verstappen.

I mean, Vettel himself admitted there was no gap.
yes but, why was the gap not there any more? There WAS a gap. Seb went for it, then Max closed it. It's simply not correct to say there wasn't a gap for Seb to go for.

There was a gap, and the only reason it disappeared was because Seb went for it and Max was watching and moved over

After that, there are some different issues about it but there was a gap. You can't say the gap didn't exist long enough to be a gap. It was a gap until Max closed it
You keep quoting and showing the same picture, the picture that if you actually look at it shows the track narrow in the distance. The picture you keep insisting shows a gap, actually shows Max in line with the inside line of the corner and a gap inside of that which disappears before the corner. Meaning that the only way for Vettel to get the inside is to get alongside before that track narrows and then push Max sideways to win the inside line. For a driver who was apparently so much faster and having the space, it's surprising that he wasn't alongside at any stage and simply ploughed into the back of the guy ahead under braking.

If someone is 'so much faster' that he isn't even one cm alongside before the braking zone starts, then he isn't that much faster at all.

Someone else said that not being on the racing line was a 'move', but it isn't. You can pick any line you want at any time, Max choosing to stay left is not a defensive move it's just picking the to drive up the left side of the track, he's fully entitled to make a move defensively before the braking zone but really doesn't have to he's just on the inside line as the road straightens and sticks to it. The inside was never open, Vettel was never alongside such that he could push Verstappen to the outside, when they reach the braking zone Vettel was behind and didn't brake early enough, nothing more or less. Vettel has very plainly explained that he thought Max would swing wide to get a better line into the corner, which he would have been fully allowed to do but that when Max didn't do that Vettel wasn't ready to brake early enough. Vettel made an assumption, it wasn't a late move left that caused it, it was Max not diving out of the way leaving him room to dive bomb which Max is not in any way close to obliged to do so. It was a critical and massive mistake by Vettel.

At many much faster corners it would make more sense to move wide to get a better line, but in such a tight corner opening it up leaves you painfully vulnerable to a divebomb and someone forcing their way through, that has always been a potential dive bombing corner, frankly no one would leave the very inside line there to move wide and open that up. Max made it plain as day he was defending the inside for the next corner and that anyone wanting to pass has to go around the outside, Vettel was pretty much the only guy who misunderstood that and as such smashed into the back of Max.

Seriously though, this is boring, there are other more interesting things to talk about, this isn't remotely controversial or difficult to understand seeing as Vettel literally laid out exactly what went wrong for you.

When Vettel himself is completely disagreeing with you it's plain as day you are wrong.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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Looks like some people forget that Silverstone isn’t a Tilke circuit where perfect straights are followed by perfect rounded corners. Silverstone flows, the track widens and tightens constantly and this is also the case with this corner, you flow trough this section, normally you go from left, where you end up from the corner before, to the right. Vettel, like he admitted, thought or hoped that Verstappen would do that too, just like Leclec opened up that corner in Austria. But Verstappen is no fool and held the inside line, just like Leclerc should have done two weeks ago.

Vettel made an error in judgement and admitted that, which is a big thing for him!

DChemTech
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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I would just like to re-iterate this sentiment.
This thread is really being killed.
DChemTech wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:07 pm
I've been passively lurking this forum for quite some time and generally enjoy the technical discussions as well as in-depth analysis of the races.
But this discussion on Vettel vs. Verstappen is completely getting pretty tiresome in my view.

Two certain individuals are intensely staunch in their viewpoint, and pretty much berate everyone who does not completely agree with them - even though their opinion is at odds with the stewards, the drivers and pretty much everyone else that expressed an opinion.
These same individuals tend to accuse others of being inflexible in their opinion and hostile towards opposing views; in other words, they accuse others of the behavior they consistently show themselves . And I am getting really tired of reading it, to a point where it really makes it difficult to enjoy those other discussions on the Silverstone grand prix.

Please, just let the whole thing rest. Even if you cannot agree that Vettel was to blame, at least agree to disagree then. We know your viewpoint, this whole thing is just going around in circles now.
And show a little respect to others. It's really baffling to see you accuse people of being "blinded by Verstappen fandom" (or something along those lines) while you are so inflexibly committed to your own righteousness that you do not seem to judge the perspectives of others fairly anymore. I've debated my fair share of flat earthers, antivaxxers and climate change deniers in my life, and I see huge parallels in behavior between you and them.

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izzy
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:30 pm

Seriously though, this is boring, there are other more interesting things to talk about, this isn't remotely controversial or difficult to understand seeing as Vettel literally laid out exactly what went wrong for you.
you're obviously not bored whatsoever you're having a great time exercising your creative side with this great long post :mrgreen:

Max wasn't defending the inside he was defending his right hand side, until he saw Seb aiming for the inside. That's why (a) there was a gap on the inside and then (b) he closed it

I do agree this discussion has gone on way too long, i don't know why people have to keep on and on arguing about it, when it's 100% undeniable there was a gap. well, you'd think it was undeniable seeing there's a picture of it

jz11
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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izzy, you cannot argue that "the gap" is there hundred meters before braking zone, the defending driver is entitled to shut it closed, the "problem" here was that the corner ahead was very tight, Max already had lower speed than Vettel and, because Max ended up way off the racing line, he had to break very early to have a chance of making the next turn, so the gap wasn't really there, what was said numerous times, Vettel was "all in" on the inside line, because of the distance, he had no way to react, expected the gap to open up when he thought Max was going to return to racing line, but he didn't, and we saw the result

again, there was absolutely nothing wrong with how Max defended, the thing is - it is very risky, and he payed the price, could have easy been DNF for him, this is exactly the same thing that happened in Baku, IMO both instances were Maxes "fault", but there is no rule that he broke there, hence he cannot be held accountable, that is why the responsibility for the crash falls on the driver that is coming from behind

I think he wouldn't defend this way if he had a chance of getting a WDC, so it doesn't really matter for him, not in Baku, not here, he can simply continue to cultivate the image of the "hard racer" till he does, then we will might see how tough he really is

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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izzy wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:03 pm
drunkf1fan wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:30 pm

Seriously though, this is boring, there are other more interesting things to talk about, this isn't remotely controversial or difficult to understand seeing as Vettel literally laid out exactly what went wrong for you.
you're obviously not bored whatsoever you're having a great time exercising your creative side with this great long post :mrgreen:

Max wasn't defending the inside he was defending his right hand side, until he saw Seb aiming for the inside. That's why (a) there was a gap on the inside and then (b) he closed it

I do agree this discussion has gone on way too long, i don't know why people have to keep on and on arguing about it, when it's 100% undeniable there was a gap. well, you'd think it was undeniable seeing there's a picture of it

No one anywhere defends the right hand side leading into a left hand turn, full stop. Then, no one defends the right hand side, by being on the left third of the track and leaving the right two thirds empty. The racing line is pretty much right on the right hand white line down there, he was no where near it, he defended the inside. Again, the track narrows, you can see where the track narrows up ahead every single time you post that same picture. Max is directly aiming for the inside where the track narrows, at no time is he 'defending the right' by being miles to the left of the racing line and on the left hand side of the track.

DChemTech
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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Izzy, you are the anti-vaxxer in that story - and the main reason the discussion has dragged on this long. A bit of self reflection would not hurt.

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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jz11 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:24 pm
izzy, you cannot argue that "the gap" is there hundred meters before braking zone, the defending driver is entitled to shut it closed, the "problem" here was that the corner ahead was very tight, Max already had lower speed than Vettel and, because Max ended up way off the racing line, he had to break very early to have a chance of making the next turn, so the gap wasn't really there, what was said numerous times, Vettel was "all in" on the inside line, because of the distance, he had no way to react, expected the gap to open up when he thought Max was going to return to racing line, but he didn't, and we saw the result

again, there was absolutely nothing wrong with how Max defended, the thing is - it is very risky, and he payed the price, could have easy been DNF for him, this is exactly the same thing that happened in Baku, IMO both instances were Maxes "fault", but there is no rule that he broke there, hence he cannot be held accountable, that is why the responsibility for the crash falls on the driver that is coming from behind

I think he wouldn't defend this way if he had a chance of getting a WDC, so it doesn't really matter for him, not in Baku, not here, he can simply continue to cultivate the image of the "hard racer" till he does, then we will might see how tough he really is
Saying Max had to brake early because he wasn't on the racing line but tighter, but also saying that vettel had no way to react is crazy. He too was on the inside, that means he too has to brake early and he had a car in front of him the entire time. This is no different to any other lap where both are on the right hand side following closely and braking at a normal time. If you brake late on the right on the racing line or on any corner then you'll smash the guy ahead. Vettel had every chance to brake and every indication Max wasn't moving out of the way and again even if he did, he needed to brake early on that line himself. He braked too damn late regardless of where Max was, he just messed it up and Max wasn't remotely close to blame.

If someone picks the left side of a track early, not a defensive move, simply out of the previous corner going down the left hand side to cover the inside and never going to the racing line, Max indicated what he was going to do and where he was going to be when he never moved to the racing line at the start of that straight, Vettel was just an idiot. Max didn't move late, he didn't brake earlier than anyone would expect, he didn't swerve, he didn't move under braking, he didn't swipe at Vettel or push him. He showed his hand as early as you possibly can and Vettel randomly thought oh, he's already telling me he's defending the inside, and in this situation no driver would swing right.... he'll probably swing right... oops.

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turbof1
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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Alright, seems this is one of those days: everybody wants to get away from the discussion, but pride and ego is getting into the way. So let me put out a Moderator Directive -wink- out there and say we are now officially moving on. No ifs and buts, the vettel-verstappen incident ends here.
#AeroFrodo

garygph
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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turbof1 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:37 pm
Alright, seems this is one of those days: everybody wants to get away from the discussion, but pride and ego is getting into the way. So let me put out a Moderator Directive -wink- out there and say we are now officially moving on. No ifs and buts, the vettel-verstappen incident ends here.
=D> =D> =D> YES!!!! Thank you!! [-o<

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yelistener
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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jz11 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:07 pm
yelistener wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:08 pm
jz11 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:50 am

and P.S. to the edit: if Vettel had a bit more cool, he wouldn't have made the move, instead complain that Max went off track to complete the overtake, and yes, going off track WAS part of the overtake, Max missed his turn in and went wide and off the track because he needed the extra speed to get past Vettel, so it is absolutely comical to me when some here still defend Max saying something along the lines - oh, but was already past Vettel, that is why it was ok to go off track #-o
Not sure why this is still be a subject. The stewards set the strict no-off-track rule ONLY for some corners. Some other corners you can go off track. It's been like this for many years, which in Silverstone Stowe is one of them, Luffield is another. In Bahrain, for years at T3 you can go off track both in quali and in race for overtaking.

At corners like Luffield, F1 doesn't give the exact no-off-track order by words to the drivers. Instead they use gravel (or pavement with different friction) to limit the drivers from doing that. Last year at Luffield the gravel had more than a car width distance to the white line, so they all went off track. F1 was not happy about it, so this year they extended the gravel to less than a car width distance to the white line, and then of cause every driver respected the track limit. Technically, you can still go off track at Luffield this year getting a valid laptime. You will just run on gravel and completely f**k up your lap of cause.
P.P.S. I re red your comment, and you totally misunderstand how rules work (at least how they should work) - competition takes place WITHIN the white lines, with some exclusions, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND, and for the 8157490574902857492835749028357490283574th time - if there was no advantage to going wide - they wouldn't do it, and if the stewards had more sense, they would make it totally clear to everyone - you go outside the white lines - you get DSQ or penalty, in qualy that means your lap is discarded, in race, while fighting for position - you give the place back (like it has been since recent times, all for the sake of the show again...), and if you went wide while cruising - you lost time - self inflicting penalty
I think you answered your own question there. F1 never made it "TOTALLY clear". At some corners it just isn't clear and that's where teams know they can benefit from these grey area. And at these corners if you allow the driver to go beyond the white line in quali, you basically gave them a free pass in the race. So IMO teams or drivers are not to be blamed in this kind of situation. FIA should. FIA allowed the existence of these grey area.

This is not a new problem tho. It just got worse since recently because since 2017 F1 started to add extra kerbs at some corners, and without stewards giving the clear no-off-track order, that practically extended the track limit. Austria's last two corners are the most glaring examples. Luffield was another in 2017-2018 but they fixed it in 2019.

falonso81
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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Install Austria's yellow sausage kerbs everywhere and limit the number of front wings a team can bring to a race. Problem solved!

jz11
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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yelistener wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:42 pm

I think you answered your own question there. F1 never made it "TOTALLY clear". At some corners it just isn't clear and that's where teams know they can benefit from these grey area. And at these corners if you allow the driver to go beyond the white line in quali, you basically gave them a free pass in the race. So IMO teams or drivers are not to be blamed in this kind of situation. FIA should. FIA allowed the existence of these grey area.

This is not a new problem tho. It just got worse since recently because since 2017 F1 started to add extra kerbs at some corners, and without stewards giving the clear no-off-track order, that practically extended the track limit. Austria's last two corners are the most glaring examples. Luffield was another in 2017-2018 but they fixed it in 2019.
I completely agree, drivers will always push the boundaries of what is and is not allowed, what FIA and stewards should have done, once these things happen - just cut it off with a knife - no more, that is it! But the "show" element is getting more and more prominent, where different rules seem to apply to different drivers depending on where they stand on the popularity rating

and as I said - going wide in that particular corner in quali or while overtaking someone are completely two different things, one is a self penalty, the other one is an immense gain by emerging ahead of someone that didn't leave the track, slower, but still ahead, which then allows them options that simply wouldn't be there for them to exploit, hence IMO that argument - oh, it was allowed in quali, so we simply follow that "rule" during the race then is bogus at best, and ignorant at worst

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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turbof1 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:38 pm
izzy wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:27 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:01 pm
But Vettel admitted there was no gap.
but we can see he was wrong, can't we? or being political, and of course it all happened very fast. but there it was, a gap

after that, we can debate whether Max was entitled to move over, but that's another issue. There was a gap, until Max closed it
He said himself he was wrong yes, to go for a gap that wasn't there. He specifically said he misjudged it. Him admitting that, the one in the cockpit trying to pull that move, is I think the biggest proof of all. We all know Vettel is not about being political. He also confirmed this a day or two afterwards, in which time he surely must have seen the footage.

You are right there was a one car width space between Verstappen and the edge of the track, but that's simply not a gap as Verstappen was able to jump himself in that space before Vettel was able to. In order to qualify as a gap, the driver behind has to be able to get his car alongside before the driver in front is able to close the door. This is not that situation. Verstappen closed it off, as he was entitled to do as long as he did not hit Vettel.

This is racecraft too: judging when a space is gap to jump into, or just a space. It is why you see a driver like Ricciardo throwing feints before going for the opposite side. The driver in front closes off the wrong space and leaves a gap for the driver behind to jump into. But Verstappen here did pretty much a standard move, going to the inside to close off the inside line.
And he did superb job #-o

We all know what he was trying to do. He is trying to make his defensive moves so late to throw attacker off balance/break to avoid accident.
IMO opinion that is unfair, stupid and mostly illegal.
Real issue here is that he was never penalised for it which is incredible!

There are certain rules that should prevent stupid and dangerous driving.
Obviously, not forcing those rules created couple of accidents.

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

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sosic2121 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:07 pm
Real issue here is that he was never penalised for it which is incredible!

There are certain rules that should prevent stupid and dangerous driving.
Obviously, not forcing those rules created couple of accidents.
I have a feeling that if Maldonado was driving for Red Bull in the current state of affairs, he wouldn't have been penalized either. :lol:

Gasly should take his chances and he might just be a hero too.