2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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dxpetrov
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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In other news, Renault retires another cat at this GP. ;)
https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-t ... o-hungary/

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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tpeman wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:19 am
drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:45 am
Yup, the "brilliant drive here" or there is all nonsense. And 'Vettel from 20th to 2nd". So what, Stroll went from 20th with 20 laps to go to leading the race for half a lap to finishing 4th in the end was it. Comparing it to last year, Ham got to 1st not by a bunch of safety cars, luck and crazy goings on but pure performance throughout.
May I disagree with that? It was obvious Vettel's car setup was for dry weather. His intermediates were already worn out by the 5th lap of the stint. Also, he made brilliant passes in the early phase of the race which got him up to 7th behind Kimi. After that he couldn't do anything, because of tire degradation and dry setup. Why do you think Mercedes guys couldn't do anything in the dry (Bottas couldn't get pass Stroll and Hamilton stuck outside the points)? Because they had wet weather setup...

On the second part of the comment, Vettel was P10 when it was dry. He made up 8 positions. Hamilton started 14th, he was P13 at the end of the first lap, he overtook the midfield and was P4-P5 by the end of lap 9-10. Vettel had that unfortunate crash, and Hamilton jumped his main competitors Raikkonen and Bottas who went into the pits. As good as that performance was, I wouldn't call it one without "safety cars, luck and crazy goings on".
On the last part, that isn't what happened last year at all. Hamilton passed all those guys on track, then the guys ahead all pitted. Hamilton stayed out and was as fast on his older tires staying out very long as all the guys on new tires. That is where he got himself into the race, his pace, not crazy luck. When he finally pitted he was only 20 seconds behind Vettel and something like 12-14 seconds behind Kimi and Bottas, 8 laps later he was literally directly behind Kimi and Bottas on track with 15 laps to go or something. He'd cut the gap to Vettel in half and the three ahead of him on track were all on older and slower tires that were cooling and struggling for temperature in the rain. Without a safety car he was easily going to beat Kimi and Bottas, painfully easily and he might well have won without vettel going out and without the safety car such was the pace he was catching him with. It's also possible all three would have pitted as they struggled so badly for grip and it was the peak wet laps and instead they did them under safety car.

The safety car didn't just get rid of a 30 second gap between Hamilton and the front three, he closed the gap to Kimi and Bottas in race under full pace conditions and had the safety car not happened he was on course for winning regardless. At no stage was Vettel showing that level of pace or anywhere near catching the front guys, he was consistently losing time to the front throughout the race and through restarts until safety cars shook it up over and over again.

As for the former, there isn't a huge difference between dry/wet setups these days, fundamentally Ferrari looked extremely quick here and almost the only safe passing place due to the rain was the main straight to the hairpin, which favoured those with the highest top speed, so Ferrari. He still got stuck in the pack and found himself less able to pass after not many laps. Later in the race his supposed dry setup, he was fighting a RP and a TR with the car with the fastest speed on the straights by a distance and not against the fastest cars. Hamilton last year was catching Vettel, Bottas and Kimi at around a second a lap, this year Vettel was fighting a RP, TR and Alfa's and wasn't catching or gaining on Verstappen out front at all.

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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JonoNic wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:04 am
I'm not sire if this was uploaded here yet. A visual description of the race. https://youtu.be/dsi5jcVD3pY
very nice. +1
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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HAM crash and pit entry from spectators view.
He saw Red!
a bit dangerous...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2e8rL0d4z0&app=desktop
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

tpeman
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:47 pm
tpeman wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:19 am
drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:45 am
Yup, the "brilliant drive here" or there is all nonsense. And 'Vettel from 20th to 2nd". So what, Stroll went from 20th with 20 laps to go to leading the race for half a lap to finishing 4th in the end was it. Comparing it to last year, Ham got to 1st not by a bunch of safety cars, luck and crazy goings on but pure performance throughout.
May I disagree with that? It was obvious Vettel's car setup was for dry weather. His intermediates were already worn out by the 5th lap of the stint. Also, he made brilliant passes in the early phase of the race which got him up to 7th behind Kimi. After that he couldn't do anything, because of tire degradation and dry setup. Why do you think Mercedes guys couldn't do anything in the dry (Bottas couldn't get pass Stroll and Hamilton stuck outside the points)? Because they had wet weather setup...

On the second part of the comment, Vettel was P10 when it was dry. He made up 8 positions. Hamilton started 14th, he was P13 at the end of the first lap, he overtook the midfield and was P4-P5 by the end of lap 9-10. Vettel had that unfortunate crash, and Hamilton jumped his main competitors Raikkonen and Bottas who went into the pits. As good as that performance was, I wouldn't call it one without "safety cars, luck and crazy goings on".
On the last part, that isn't what happened last year at all. Hamilton passed all those guys on track, then the guys ahead all pitted. Hamilton stayed out and was as fast on his older tires staying out very long as all the guys on new tires. That is where he got himself into the race, his pace, not crazy luck. When he finally pitted he was only 20 seconds behind Vettel and something like 12-14 seconds behind Kimi and Bottas, 8 laps later he was literally directly behind Kimi and Bottas on track with 15 laps to go or something. He'd cut the gap to Vettel in half and the three ahead of him on track were all on older and slower tires that were cooling and struggling for temperature in the rain. Without a safety car he was easily going to beat Kimi and Bottas, painfully easily and he might well have won without vettel going out and without the safety car such was the pace he was catching him with. It's also possible all three would have pitted as they struggled so badly for grip and it was the peak wet laps and instead they did them under safety car.

The safety car didn't just get rid of a 30 second gap between Hamilton and the front three, he closed the gap to Kimi and Bottas in race under full pace conditions and had the safety car not happened he was on course for winning regardless. At no stage was Vettel showing that level of pace or anywhere near catching the front guys, he was consistently losing time to the front throughout the race and through restarts until safety cars shook it up over and over again.

As for the former, there isn't a huge difference between dry/wet setups these days, fundamentally Ferrari looked extremely quick here and almost the only safe passing place due to the rain was the main straight to the hairpin, which favoured those with the highest top speed, so Ferrari. He still got stuck in the pack and found himself less able to pass after not many laps. Later in the race his supposed dry setup, he was fighting a RP and a TR with the car with the fastest speed on the straights by a distance and not against the fastest cars. Hamilton last year was catching Vettel, Bottas and Kimi at around a second a lap, this year Vettel was fighting a RP, TR and Alfa's and wasn't catching or gaining on Verstappen out front at all.
The guys in front wouldn't have pitted if it wasn't for the rain and the SC. Yeah, Hamilton put himself in the game that day, but he was still a lot of secs behind. And he was slower after the restart (Bottas was ordered to hold position, otherwise he was all over him) and Kimi was nowhere that race. If Vettel hadn't crashed, he would've been all over the back of Hamilton with a fresh set of ultras. What won Hamilton that race was balance between pace and tire management, something that he wouldn't be able to do with a faster Ferrari with 10 laps younger tires. Like I said, brilliant drive, but not without luck. He didn't get to scrap with anyone but Bottas, and the later was ordered to stay behind.

There will always be wet/dry weather setups. Let me give some examples:

- Hungary 2014 - Vergne with Torro Rosso (!) was fighting with Alonso for the lead, with Massa in the Williams, Vettel was in the mix as well, Rosberg and Ricciardo were nowhere. Where did they all finish? Ricciardo won, Rosberg was 4th, essentially having caught an extra pitstop, Vergne was 9th almost 1 lap down, Vettel 8th, Massa barely holding 5th from a storming Kimi (from 14th) with dry setup.

- USA 2015: Red Bull overtook both Mercedes when it was wet, yet later in the race they fell of top 10 when it was dry. Mercedes had a mixed setup, which made them good in both cases, but not fastest. Hence why, Red Bull were faster in the early part, and Vettel (with a dry setup) almost caught them in the later phase of the grand prix.

- this very race: mixed setup for Max and Leclerc, paid off well for Max, wet weather setup for the Merc guys, dry for Vettel. Max was doing well in both conditions, but his strength came when it was time for intermediates (+1 for the mixed setup), we might only speculate what Charles would have done, Merc guys were fast when it was wet, but nowhere in the dry (Bottas stuck behind the Racing Point of Stroll, getting caught by Sainz with a McLaren, Hamilton was stuck behind the Haas, which are usually slow in the race). Vettel was going fast in the intermediate conditions when it mattered (going from P20 to P7), but his tires were pretty worn at the end of every wet/intermediate tires stint, in the dry he was clearly the fastest, he went slow on the last lap probably because the car was critical on fuel. The most logical explanation to me for all this is car setup.

falonso81
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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Guys check the weather for Hungaroring. I think we are in for another great race. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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tpeman wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:41 pm

The guys in front wouldn't have pitted if it wasn't for the rain and the SC. Yeah, Hamilton put himself in the game that day, but he was still a lot of secs behind. And he was slower after the restart (Bottas was ordered to hold position, otherwise he was all over him) and Kimi was nowhere that race. If Vettel hadn't crashed, he would've been all over the back of Hamilton with a fresh set of ultras. What won Hamilton that race was balance between pace and tire management, something that he wouldn't be able to do with a faster Ferrari with 10 laps younger tires. Like I said, brilliant drive, but not without luck. He didn't get to scrap with anyone but Bottas, and the later was ordered to stay behind.
No, the guys pitted for their one stop, that is the only stop I'm talking about. After that one stop, before anything to do with the rain, Hamilton got a hefty lead due to his pace and after his one stop he was 20 seconds behind Vettel, 10 laps later and he's 1-2 seconds behind Kimi and Bottas, 10 behind Vettel and closing on both at a second or more a lap with ~15-20 laps to go.

He was literally on top of Bottas and Kimi, with far newer and faster compound tires and he was eating them alive. Without the safety car he passes both of them in the next handful of corners let alone laps. Due to his fresher tires, higher pace and better temps in tires he was best set to survive the next few wettest laps while the others may have had to pit due to having the harder compound and much older tires, so they may have pitted just to get to the end anyway, they may also have gone to inters and then had to pit a second time as basically when Vettel crashed was the wettest point and teams could well have chosen then to go inters. As it happened the safety car slowed the race, people pitted but the rain stopped and everyone figured with 3 laps on slicks the track would be drying anyway.

On the restart Hamilton now had the older, but not that old tires and the other guys had fresher warmer tires, they got their tires up to temp a little quicker. Hamilton held position at the end of the straights and he pulled out a gap immediately after his tires got up to temps. Bottas clearly wasn't called off before the twisty section as he was trying through the two best straights for passing and he failed, he then dropped back significantly and was under pressure from Kimi rather than keeping up with Hamilton, if he could go faster he would have. Hamilton pulled a gap easily. The only issue was tire warm up.

I'm not sure what the rest of it you're saying is. If they pitted without safety car conditions then Vettel either pits and ends up 10 seconds behind Hamilton and had a slower pace all race compared to him and while his tires would be newer, they wouldn't be noticeably faster. Neither kimi or Bottas were faster than Hamilton after the first half lap after the restart. under non safety car conditions Vettel pitting would have been 10 seconds behind Hamilton and Kimi/bottas would have been 20 seconds behind Hamilton.

If they had to pit without crashes/safety car, Hamilton wins extremely easily. If they don't pit, Ham gets 2nd for sure, maybe wins anyway. He was miles faster than anyone else on track at any time that day and monstrously faster than anyone on the slicks when it rained.

Espresso
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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FrukostScones wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:49 pm
HAM crash and pit entry from spectators view.
He saw Red!
a bit dangerous...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2e8rL0d4z0&app=desktop
@FrukostScones: Someone else also saw red....in front of the Red Bull station... :D
Small hint: 2019 Ferrari Test & Development Driver and Formula E Driver
Guess who...


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rogazilla
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

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Capharol wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:38 am
gokarter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:34 am
ferari very lucky to get away with a fine. if they allowed leclerc to get away with a fine for unsafe release. then it should be the same with max in monaco. Well we know what FIA stands for. It a shame how this sport is ruined by red politics. running extra performance with extra battery for qualifying and get away know full well FIA will turn a blind eye.my only wish for fia dont favour a particular team.
this is a bullshit claim and you know it...
i am not a fan of Ferrari but stay realistic.
VER got his penalty because he touched with Bottas in Monaco
Ferrari, as team, got the fine because this was a perfect example of "unsafe release" as the rule should be and was ment for....
so don't search anything that isn't there
I think this is a dangerous precedent because the large team will be releasing car closer and closer to the limit as long as they are not crashing because they can afford the fines. It is worth the fine for Leclerc instead of waiting for Haas to pass which would be another second or 2.

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Sieper
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

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Capharol wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:39 pm
gokarter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:13 pm
Ferrari, as team, got the fine because this was a perfect example of "unsafe release" as the rule should be and was ment for....
so don't search anything that isn't there
Why a fine? this is a clear 5 sec penalty.This Fine( it is like probably breakfast money ferrari spends a day) FIA wanted leclerc and a ferrari win badly . shame. At least be consistent FIA. if a there is another unsafe release ,then everyone should get only a fine. Believe me if this was any team other than Ferrari- they will get an immediate 5 sec penalty, My respect for ferrari has been diminished slowly over the years because in the end fans want to see a clean fight and no politics.
again you're looking for a thing that isn't there and as Masi already stated more then once "we look at each incident as on its own" meaning no incident is similar to another one that occured in the past....

but i would say keep trying to find something that isn't there ... keeps you off the street :roll:
Whilst you are totally right Verstappen caught the penalty for bumping into Bottas and as such he personally deserved the penalty (in Monaco) as the stewards also clearly wrote in their verdict and as also evidenced by Verstappen NOT getting a penalty for the almost exact same scenario in Austria (where he and Leclerc managed not to touch) then simply stating no penalty for Leclerc as there was no collision yesterday is too easy. The only reason Lec and Mag (or was it Gro) did not bump into each other (in a super crowded pitlane, with a buzzing of cars) was that the Haas driver avoided it, it was not due to Lec. So by that reasoning if Bottas would have braked all would have been fine in Monaco as well (and perhaps it would have been) but that still leaves the fact that Lec won his position on Hulkenberg in the pits (and only because the Haas car stopped for him). So Lec personally gained a position and there should have been a personal penalty for that as it was unfair to leave the spot whilst the Haas was coming in and putting him and everybody else in danger (of losing serious time). What if 2 collided cars blocked the pit there. The fine was too light and was given as they wanted a potential front runner not to be disadvantaged imho.
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Capharol
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

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rogazilla wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:41 pm
Capharol wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:38 am
gokarter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:34 am
ferari very lucky to get away with a fine. if they allowed leclerc to get away with a fine for unsafe release. then it should be the same with max in monaco. Well we know what FIA stands for. It a shame how this sport is ruined by red politics. running extra performance with extra battery for qualifying and get away know full well FIA will turn a blind eye.my only wish for fia dont favour a particular team.
this is a bullshit claim and you know it...
i am not a fan of Ferrari but stay realistic.
VER got his penalty because he touched with Bottas in Monaco
Ferrari, as team, got the fine because this was a perfect example of "unsafe release" as the rule should be and was ment for....
so don't search anything that isn't there
I think this is a dangerous precedent because the large team will be releasing car closer and closer to the limit as long as they are not crashing because they can afford the fines. It is worth the fine for Leclerc instead of waiting for Haas to pass which would be another second or 2.
I agree it is an dangerous precedent, but that decision itself was correct, because the team should have hold him at his place, this because the driver doesn't see much during this pitstop due to the team running around the car (its already hard when you are alone in the pit, let stand when 6-7 other teams are standing there and waiting) .... so in this case the team was at fault and not the driver, the team should have hold Leclerc back, the fine spoken out was way to lenient that i critizise... it should have been 10x higher at least
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dtro
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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Why is there an issue with the team getting fined as opposed to the driver? When various teams had wheel nut issues and released a car with a tire that would fall off they either stop them before pit exit, or if they notice too late order them to stop somewhere safe. The team gets the fine and this the rule cited is a "unsafe release."

Mountains out of molehills.

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Artur Craft
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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GPR -A wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:57 am
Artur Craft wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:45 am
what is mouth watering about Verstappen massively beating Hamilton and showing him up? Remember that Hamilton had a hard time with Rosberg who got confortably trounced by webber, who got easily beaten by Vettel, who had a hard time keeping up with Ricciardo, who struggled to match Verstappen.
I can feel your pain man. Watching Lewis win day in and day out isn't that easy. So in that sense, if statement above makes one feel comfortable, then why not conceive it and be happy. Right?
You can choose to believe otherwise. One can believe in whatever makes him feel happy, even if it is detached from reality as is the case with most driver's fans

Jolle
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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Artur Craft wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:11 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:57 am
Artur Craft wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:45 am
what is mouth watering about Verstappen massively beating Hamilton and showing him up? Remember that Hamilton had a hard time with Rosberg who got confortably trounced by webber, who got easily beaten by Vettel, who had a hard time keeping up with Ricciardo, who struggled to match Verstappen.
I can feel your pain man. Watching Lewis win day in and day out isn't that easy. So in that sense, if statement above makes one feel comfortable, then why not conceive it and be happy. Right?
You can choose to believe otherwise. One can believe in whatever makes him feel happy, even if it is detached from reality as is the case with most driver's fans
Oh... Alonso had a hard time against Hamilton and Schumacher with Rosberg, Schumacher trumped Piquet and Piquet won besides Mansell who was beaten by Prost at Ferrari who had a good battle with Senna, won from Rosberg and won from Lauda who was teammates with Piquet so... uhm... Guess James Hunt is the best driver ever?

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henry
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Re: 2019 German Grand Prix - Hockenheimring, July 26-28

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dtro wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:06 pm
Why is there an issue with the team getting fined as opposed to the driver? When various teams had wheel nut issues and released a car with a tire that would fall off they either stop them before pit exit, or if they notice too late order them to stop somewhere safe. The team gets the fine and this the rule cited is a "unsafe release."

Mountains out of molehills.
It’s because it’s a safety issue. An unsafe release could result in serious injury or worse given there are several hundred people physically close to any incident. Remember these cars way over 800kg.

A fine is not a deterrent. If by releasing unsafely they gain or don’t lose a place that’s more points and apart from championship standings they’ll also get more results based money to offset the fine.

Personally I think they should have a technology based solution and disqualify anyone who abuses it.
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