2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Rai is really doing a solid job. I am looking forward to Spa and Monza. Alfa should be really fast with the Ferrari power unit. Exciting.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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GPR -A wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:54 pm
Thank you. =D>
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:27 pm
sprint car76 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:12 pm
Got a question for you all. How many of you thought, at the moment Hamilton went into the pits for his last stop, that he had a hope of catching verstap? I'm a hamilton fan and i thought "You just screwed up again" Still thinking about germany i thought "Here we go again" The only chance i thought he had was because he had pushed verstap so hard in the middle stint. But honestly after the first few laps after his stop when he was only gaining tenths of a second i thought it was over. So be honest now.
I knew immediately it was lost. You can even look up my direct reply in the race thread already congratulating Merc. In himdsight there was still a small possibility if they had pitted Verstappen in lap 57. Until that point the time loss was contained but after that it went with seconds at a time and RB should have made the calculation. If they had done so Max would have returned on track 6 seconds behind Hamilton but with a lot fresher tyres he could have attacked back perhaps.
You do realise how an undercut works #-o ?

So according to you If Max pit at the end of lap 57 (the gap being 14.7) for some used softs, have a wild guess to what Mercedes would have done, they also had same age softs available to them, and now they have a at least a 6 second window to box Hamilton on the next lap. Lewis pits, comes out 4 or 5 seconds ahead of Max on 1 lap newer tyres.

If you were able to see Lewis strategy being a guaranteed win as soon as Hamilton went in to the pits, how can you then make such an error in thinking Max could pit for softs on lap 57 and then fail to see Hamilton could/would box to cover him with the luxury of having enough time to make a 6 second pit stop and still come out in front of Max with newer tyres. Unbelievable Jeff.
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SiLo
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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The only way Max could win that race was to stay out and hope Hamilton burns up his tyres, gets caught in traffic or makes a mistake.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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ringo wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:45 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:09 pm
ubuysa wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:04 am


Agreed. I joined this forum hoping to get way from the MAX is a better driver than HAM rubbish that you see on lesser fora. It's not just about the drivers, F1 is a TEAM sport and the winners are the team who get their car(s) over the line first. Sun Tzu in 'The Art of War' said that "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting" and that's exactly what Mercedes did in Hungary (at least with one car) and it was well done.

Surely we all realise that you're NEVER going to be able to compare any two drivers unless they are in exactly the same car with exactly the same tyres and exactly the same setup, and even then the driver in front will always have an advantage due to clean airflow. We are fortunate as spectators to have them both in cars where they will give us many battles to enjoy.

Had HAM managed to get past VER on the hards then Red Bull would have used the same second stop tactic. The real reason why Mercedes were able to get way with that second stop, and why Red Bull would have done it too, was because neither GAS nor BOT were where they should have been. Red Bull lost, not because of anything VER did or didn't do, they lost because GAS didn't do his job....
Good post but not necessarily, HAM had enough pace that had he been able to pull off the epic "around the outside" t4 pass, he would have gapped VER enough that the undercut wouldn't have worked and also HAM's gap would give him enough time to pit the next lap after VER pitted.
max made an error near the end lap 38 from the on board video of hamilton. He had an oversteer moment, maybe lost him 3 tenths. I think this setup hamilton for the overtake attempt the following lap.
I agree with Ham having enough pace to stay ahead if max pitted. Merc would simply pit him. Also max would also be in dirty air if Lewis got past making things even worse in terms of pace to regain p1.
Shhh! dont mention that, I did just that a few pages back, it was actually over half a second he lost, in the end I was accused by a member here that I was claiming my dick was bigger than someone elses here. Max didnt make that mistake, It was Ricciardo who made that mistake apparently.
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zac510
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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I honestly thought it was the win for Hamilton on lap 25 when Max pitted on those shagged tyres and Hamilton kept going. It was either 2 stop for Max (and 1 for Hamilton), or no way making it to the end on those hards. The only thing I didn't know was how or when Hamilton would get in front, and I enjoyed seeing how that played out.

Track position is king and I don't blame RBR for keeping Max out. A safety car could have saved the race for him. A long shot, but worth it in the situation.

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:06 am
Pyrone89 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:27 pm
sprint car76 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:12 pm
Got a question for you all. How many of you thought, at the moment Hamilton went into the pits for his last stop, that he had a hope of catching verstap? I'm a hamilton fan and i thought "You just screwed up again" Still thinking about germany i thought "Here we go again" The only chance i thought he had was because he had pushed verstap so hard in the middle stint. But honestly after the first few laps after his stop when he was only gaining tenths of a second i thought it was over. So be honest now.
I knew immediately it was lost. You can even look up my direct reply in the race thread already congratulating Merc. In himdsight there was still a small possibility if they had pitted Verstappen in lap 57. Until that point the time loss was contained but after that it went with seconds at a time and RB should have made the calculation. If they had done so Max would have returned on track 6 seconds behind Hamilton but with a lot fresher tyres he could have attacked back perhaps.
You do realise how an undercut works #-o ?

So according to you If Max pit at the end of lap 57 (the gap being 14.7) for some used softs, have a wild guess to what Mercedes would have done, they also had same age softs available to them, and now they have a at least a 6 second window to box Hamilton on the next lap. Lewis pits, comes out 4 or 5 seconds ahead of Max on 1 lap newer tyres.

If you were able to see Lewis strategy being a guaranteed win as soon as Hamilton went in to the pits, how can you then make such an error in thinking Max could pit for softs on lap 57 and then fail to see Hamilton could/would box to cover him with the luxury of having enough time to make a 6 second pit stop and still come out in front of Max with newer tyres. Unbelievable Jeff.
Your logic fails #-o . How can you make such a simple math error :wtf: . Max was still in front at the lap 57 mark, even by 15 seconds. If he had pitted he would have come out 5 seconds behind Hamilton and Hamilton could not have reacted because he would then come out behind Max again and this time on equal tyres with 13 laps to go and 15 seconds behind.
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

carisi2k
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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yes that one intrigued me as well. I was wondering why they didn't put max on to a set of softs to nullify Lewis's pitstop. What I don't understand is how Lewis only ended up 19 seconds behind when he was behind Max. How long was the pitstop window and surely red bull could have pulled off one of their 1.9 second stops.

Justthatek
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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carisi2k wrote:yes that one intrigued me as well. I was wondering why they didn't put max on to a set of softs to nullify Lewis's pitstop. What I don't understand is how Lewis only ended up 19 seconds behind when he was behind Max. How long was the pitstop window and surely red bull could have pulled off one of their 1.9 second stops.
Pitstop window was 20secs hamilton took 1.5secs out of max on the outlap after he pitted.

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digitalrurouni
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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I was under the impression when Mercedes pitted Hamilton the second time the best thing Red Bull could have done was pit Max immediately and then let the two of them duel it out. Though to be fair RB did not know and neither was it a guarantee that the 20 sec gap would be demolished in 20 laps.

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Giving up a lead and hoping your guy can fight is a huge risk compared to maintaining the lead and hoping the guy can't catch. Reality was if they pit Max for mediums of softs on the next lap he'd be behind and 95% likely that Hamilton moves away. It's really a numbers game, chance Hamilton gets by all traffic, makes no mistakes, doesn't go wide a few times while pushing hard costing a couple of seconds, the tires stay in, no VSC which would reduce the laps/time he had to catch him, no safety car (both of which could enable Max to pit and possibly come out ahead or with a small gap and fresher tires).

Numbers wise pitting was a very low chance of winning for RBR at that stage while staying out there were numerous ways in which it could go wrong for Hamilton.

For Merc it wasn't as obvious a choice in that, Hamilton had better tire life, he had better performance on the hards and he's pretty much king on Hungary, he's ridiculous there and he had another 20 laps to attack Max and frankly i think there was a pretty high chance he'd make the move. For Merc it was 20 laps to make a move with maybe half a second pace advantage and still a probably 70% chance he wins, or a 95% chance it passes with a 1-2 second pace advantage, but he'd only have the last 3-4 laps of the race at best because he needs to catch up the gap. Both were pretty damn good options, both had risk but in most cases fresh tires are the right choice.

I think people overestimate better second drivers here, I do think Gasly is woeful and Bottas isn't great, but if Hamilton pitted and lets say Gasly was only 15 seconds behind Hamilton... Hamilton wouldn't have taken more than a lap to get past him anyway, I don't think it would have made the slightest bit of difference and I don't think there are many drivers outside of Max and Hamilton themselves, that would have had the performance to hold the other up. Gasly needs replacing, but not because him being there would have saved the race, but him being 15 seconds behind would have meant they eat into Ferrari's WDC advantage rather than drop back., well, drop back without the fastest lap point. It should have been Ham, Ver, Gasly, Vettel, Leclerc, with RBR getting 34 points and Ferrari getting only 22.


People are also wrong about the idea of pitting Max around lap 57 because the 'times were close'. The times were close because Ham had to go through like 3-4 cars all close to each other and he got badly held up. But if Max pitted later for softs, he too would have had to go through that same traffic losing roughly the same amount of time. So while Ham probably lost around 5-6 seconds, then when by them he was gaining at 1.5 seconds a lap, when Max caught back up to them he to would lose another 6 seconds through that traffic. There was zero chance that Max pitting several laps later would have had any chance to come back at Hamilton. if he pitted the lap after and was only a few seconds behind and IF they maybe risked 20 laps on the softs and found them faster but lasted, maybe, very slim chance but maybe. 5-7 laps later, no chance he was going to make up the gap.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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double post
Last edited by Just_a_fan on Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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SiLo wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:14 am
The only way Max could win that race was to stay out and hope Hamilton burns up his tyres, gets caught in traffic or makes a mistake.
Exactly. Mercedes had the luxury of "trying something" safe in the knowledge that if it didn't work then they would lose nothing. They were safe from Ferrari so the worst case was they'd try it and still end up second. Max didn't have that luxury. He had to rely on Lewis having a problem. RedBull knew that too which is why they had no choice but to wait and see what happened. Even Mercedes weren't sure it would work and Bono was telling Lewis that they figured he'd catch Max with only one or two laps to go. As it happened, the combination of some high quality driving from Lewis (sticking in half a dozen 1.18.6-ish laps in a row) and the decline of Max's worn tyres led to Lewis catching Max earlier than predicted. It would have only taken a Lewis lock up or some similar mess-up for Max to have been safe.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:46 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:06 am
Pyrone89 wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:27 pm

I knew immediately it was lost. You can even look up my direct reply in the race thread already congratulating Merc. In himdsight there was still a small possibility if they had pitted Verstappen in lap 57. Until that point the time loss was contained but after that it went with seconds at a time and RB should have made the calculation. If they had done so Max would have returned on track 6 seconds behind Hamilton but with a lot fresher tyres he could have attacked back perhaps.
You do realise how an undercut works #-o ?

So according to you If Max pit at the end of lap 57 (the gap being 14.7) for some used softs, have a wild guess to what Mercedes would have done, they also had same age softs available to them, and now they have a at least a 6 second window to box Hamilton on the next lap. Lewis pits, comes out 4 or 5 seconds ahead of Max on 1 lap newer tyres.

If you were able to see Lewis strategy being a guaranteed win as soon as Hamilton went in to the pits, how can you then make such an error in thinking Max could pit for softs on lap 57 and then fail to see Hamilton could/would box to cover him with the luxury of having enough time to make a 6 second pit stop and still come out in front of Max with newer tyres. Unbelievable Jeff.
Your logic fails #-o . How can you make such a simple math error :wtf: . Max was still in front at the lap 57 mark, even by 15 seconds. If he had pitted he would have come out 5 seconds behind Hamilton and Hamilton could not have reacted because he would then come out behind Max again and this time on equal tyres with 13 laps to go and 15 seconds behind.
My bad, I totally misunderstood what was being said :oops:
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Re: 2019 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, August 2-4

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Good discussion. This race was especially interesting for me because it had more than driver against driver.It had two different approaches to how to build a car to the rules, strategy, and two of the best drivers. There is so much more to a successful race than a lot of people realize. Being involved in race car design and building side i tend to be very interested in the tech and this is by far the best forum to discuss tech and racing.