2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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TheGkbrk
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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While the whole team was celebrating the win, Seb preferred to stay at the back after Leclerc called him. He looks disappointed even though he is kinda smiling.
https://twitter.com/FiftyBucksss/status ... 01793?s=20
#14

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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On the Kimi / Max incident, at the start, Max got a slow start allowing others to get up around him. Initially, there was a RP car on Kimi's right with Max on a line to the right of that that would probably not have been visible to Kimi. The RP backed out and moved left behind Kimi. Kimi probably then assumed, because he couldn't see Max and knew that "the car on my right isn't there anymore", that he could move right to take the tight line. Max, sadly, was by then coming up the inside. With Kimi turning in, the angle his mirror would show him probably didn't allow sight of Max at that point.

It's just one of those racing incidents, although Max knew Kimi had to turn in to the corner at some point. Max didn't know whether Kimi had room to his left so couldn't assume that Kimi would a) see him, and b) be able to accommodate him. Luckily for Kimi, it was a slow corner or he'd have been barrel rolled by the contact with Max's front wheel.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

zeph
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Nickel wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:53 am
zeph wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:52 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:22 pm
At what point did he leave track with all four wheels?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNRndLVyDSw

My bad, it wasn’t that fight. It was an earlier overtake, I don’t remember on whom.
That was vs Ricciardo.
Thanks for clearing that up.

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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:12 am
On the Kimi / Max incident, at the start, Max got a slow start allowing others to get up around him. Initially, there was a RP car on Kimi's right with Max on a line to the right of that that would probably not have been visible to Kimi. The RP backed out and moved left behind Kimi. Kimi probably then assumed, because he couldn't see Max and knew that "the car on my right isn't there anymore", that he could move right to take the tight line. Max, sadly, was by then coming up the inside. With Kimi turning in, the angle his mirror would show him probably didn't allow sight of Max at that point.

It's just one of those racing incidents, although Max knew Kimi had to turn in to the corner at some point. Max didn't know whether Kimi had room to his left so couldn't assume that Kimi would a) see him, and b) be able to accommodate him. Luckily for Kimi, it was a slow corner or he'd have been barrel rolled by the contact with Max's front wheel.
A racing incident, yes. Should Verstappen know better? probably.

but, looking at starts over the years in Spa, it's custom and safe in a pack on a corner like that that the drivers starting at the outside take the wide line and the inside drivers the inside. Look at Bottas for instance. Kimi took a risk, even when he was looking in his mirrors, that cutting to the inside from the outside line with 15 fighting cars behind him (with all outside starting drivers taking the outside line), could get him lost for space on the apex.

Jester Maroc
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:46 am
drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:38 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:07 am


Clearly verstappen's fault, but as usual the stewards are too lenient, which will lead to these collisions happening over and over again. RAI couldn't see VER, but VER could clearly see that RAI was not taking a wide racing line thru le source. The stewards were probably lenient because VER'S race was ended, but probably wouldn't have penalized him even if it didn't, even though he destroyed Kimi's race.
It wasn't even close to Verstappen's fault.

If you start wide and swing to the apex on the start then unless you're first(and clear and you can see everyone else and know you have space or dead last, you're probably going to cause an accident. More importantly, Kimi has been involved in multiple accidents, including in Spa with Verstappen, because of drivers who decide that at the start with less good visibility and much higher chance of cars alongside that they should still change lines as if it was lap 30 and drivers are single file 99% of the race at that point.

Every car who started as wide as Kimi in braking who stayed wide didn't make contact, and that holds true in almost every race and in most races when someone decides to go from a wide line to the apex, or from a tight inside line to the outside a collision usually happens. Car's don't disappear because he wants them to. The inside was miles open, Verstappen is well alongside before Kimi turned all the way in... he turned all the way to the apex anyway. Refusing to leave room at the apex has cost Kimi how many accidents in T1 and he still does it.

He's done it to Vettel a couple times while in a Ferrari, Vettel did it to him in Spa, and effectively in Singapore and in plenty of other places.

If you're going to brake early and on a wide line then chopping to the apex that late is beyond ridiculous.


Also if you look at Singapore, at Spa, in China, what do those have in common, a Ferrari swung over towards another car not realising there was another car on the inside and caused accidents each time.... so what did Kimi learn from this? He's on the left half of the track, he can see one car, he knew Verstappen was ahead(at the start and while slow could still be somewhere around there) and on the inside somewhere so should absolutely think he could be there and has been involved in multiple collisions from people assuming a second car isn't there, so he immediately chopped over when the Racing Point backed off assuming he was clear.

When drivers at the start go through a corner on the rough line they enter, no accidents. When the change lines drastically, accidents. Max didn't change line, Kimi did because he made a mind numbingly stupid assumption that he was clear at the start in a always crowded corner and thus thought he could take any line he wanted.
wow... I never seen a comment in which I *disagree* with every single word.

Max run out of talent. He performed a textbook dive bomb. He deserved a 5-place grid penalty for the next race.. Alas.

Albon will show what real talent looks like.
Careful, you will soon be eating humble pie IMO. I am no fan of Max, but I highly doubt Albon will beat him. The following Max has is not only because of his attitude, Dutchness, and sense of entitlement, but also because he is a very highly skilled driver.

In this incident, he did not run out of talent, he simply made a bad decision. Sadly it was Kimi who was on the receiving end. Max is a high-risk high-reward racer.
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

falonso81
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Jester Maroc wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:06 am
Max is a high-risk high-reward racer.
That is exactly the reason that will keep him back from a world title.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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f1316 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:33 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:41 pm
f1316 wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:30 pm
Now a Ferrari new spec engine problem. The difference being that the works team haven’t taken it yet, and have until next week to decide whether to do so.
Actually the difference is that Ferrari have a test mule team as does RedBull.
Wasn’t referring to Red Bull - I was saying the difference between Ferrari and Mercedes. Undoubtedly Mercedes could have chosen to give its customers the new PU before they ran it as well.

I know Perez took an old Mercedes PU as his replacement, whereas Giovannazzi took a new Ferrari one - what Kubica take? The Alfa still fitting a new one - at the cost of a grid penalty- implies confidence that there was no inherent issue, and he actually had really good race pace - going from 18th to 9th before his crash - which may bode well for the availability of higher modes in the race for Ferrari from Monza.
I know. I’m making the point that the key difference is that Ferrari can use Alfa as a test bed. They can throw another new one at Alfa and if it goes bang again they just get even more data. Mercedes cannot do that with a customer team. That was why I referenced RedBull and STR as like Ferrari they have a lovely test bed Jr team.

Diesel
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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The biggest thing about Max-Kimi incident was it was so easily avoidable for Max. He would have overtaken Kimi later, probably even later on in the lap, there was no need to get the move done there. This is something Hamilton has learnt and has demonstrated in recent years.

Just look at what Albon was able to do, apparently Horner even said to him "the car will come alive in the second half of the race".
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

DChemTech
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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falonso81 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:04 am
Jester Maroc wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:06 am
Max is a high-risk high-reward racer.
That is exactly the reason that will keep him back from a world title.
I would hardly call a 21-race non-retirement streak "high risk". He's driving quite good lately. This was no more than a typical first-lap, crowdy corner racing incident. As Diesel says above, it was an avoidable incident - and he should have avoided it - but it there's no need to present it as any more than that. Problem is that some people just can't deal with any critique on his driving (there were several finger-flippers towards Kimi around us, completely uncalled for), and some others find it necessary to oppose Max's every move, regardless of his actual performance. Both lead to a cloudy judgement.

Jester Maroc
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:57 am
falonso81 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:04 am
Jester Maroc wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:06 am
Max is a high-risk high-reward racer.
That is exactly the reason that will keep him back from a world title.
I would hardly call a 21-race non-retirement streak "high risk". He's driving quite good lately. This was no more than a typical first-lap, crowdy corner racing incident. As Diesel says above, it was an avoidable incident - and he should have avoided it - but it there's no need to present it as any more than that. Problem is that some people just can't deal with any critique on his driving (there were several finger-flippers towards Kimi around us, completely uncalled for), and some others find it necessary to oppose Max's every move, regardless of his actual performance. Both lead to a cloudy judgement.
Amazing! I am so relieved to read common sense from a Dutch person discussing Max. =D> :lol:

I agree, he has been racing a lot better (safer) lately, and he has put me in danger of warming up to him. I think what we should all agree is that he is a generational talent, and only time will tell if he can continue to improve his race-craft and start appreciating the bigger picture strategically. His absence (and Kimis) in the race denied us a greater spectacle.
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

DChemTech
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Jester Maroc wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:10 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:57 am
falonso81 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:04 am


That is exactly the reason that will keep him back from a world title.
I would hardly call a 21-race non-retirement streak "high risk". He's driving quite good lately. This was no more than a typical first-lap, crowdy corner racing incident. As Diesel says above, it was an avoidable incident - and he should have avoided it - but it there's no need to present it as any more than that. Problem is that some people just can't deal with any critique on his driving (there were several finger-flippers towards Kimi around us, completely uncalled for), and some others find it necessary to oppose Max's every move, regardless of his actual performance. Both lead to a cloudy judgement.
Amazing! I am so relieved to read common sense from a Dutch person discussing Max. =D> :lol:

I agree, he has been racing a lot better (safer) lately, and he has put me in danger of warming up to him. I think what we should all agree is that he is a generational talent, and only time will tell if he can continue to improve his race-craft and start appreciating the bigger picture strategically. His absence (and Kimis) in the race denied us a greater spectacle.
I'm not too much a fan of chauvinism anyway; that someone just happens to be born in the same geographical area shouldn't be a major factor in whether you like them or not. I do like Max as a driver for stirring up the races (as long as he doesn't do it in a too reckless way, as has been the case in the past for sure), but as a person, meh. Prefer Hulkenberg in that sense - so I was happy to see he beat Ricciardo in the race and was not intensely far behind in qualifying, despite this being the first race after the Renault exit (which I suppose could hurt morale a bit). Hope it helps him in finding a decent drive for next year.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Irrespective of who was at fault, it was Max who lost out. Early last year I would have expected it of him, this year I am disappointed as he seemed to be taking the long view and common sense.
Even If kimi was deemed responsible got a double drive through, 10 second stop and go and sent to the back of the grid for the rest of the year it would not benefit Max at all.
He should have weighed up the odds and found them wanting. Had it been Bottas, the odds would change as loss of points in both cases is more acceptable.

Still, I am sure it will be filed away in hos mind and considered in future races.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

ubuysa
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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I'm not a fan of Max, though I am warming to him of late, but it's too easy for us to be experts after the event. Max had a poor start and tried to make up for that. He was unwise to try for a gap that was never going to be there, but it's hard to blame him given the circumstances.

I have to say that I've started to like Max now he's grown a little.

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Unc1eM0nty
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:41 am
The biggest thing about Max-Kimi incident was it was so easily avoidable for Max. He would have overtaken Kimi later, probably even later on in the lap, there was no need to get the move done there. This is something Hamilton has learnt and has demonstrated in recent years.
The bad start made him anxious, he felt he had to make up the lost places, as you say there was no rush - it was only a matter of time till he got back ahead of them.

A bad call in the heat of the moment, he's thrown the race away and something that wasn't even a half chance, has to learn from it though

Diesel
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Unc1eM0nty wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:04 pm
Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:41 am
The biggest thing about Max-Kimi incident was it was so easily avoidable for Max. He would have overtaken Kimi later, probably even later on in the lap, there was no need to get the move done there. This is something Hamilton has learnt and has demonstrated in recent years.
The bad start made him anxious, he felt he had to make up the lost places, as you say there was no rush - it was only a matter of time till he got back ahead of them.

A bad call in the heat of the moment, he's thrown the race away and something that wasn't even a half chance, has to learn from it though
I'm certain he will absolutely learn from it. Good point about the start too, it's not the first time this year the Red Bull's have made bad starts, I wonder if this is something related to the switch to Honda?
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP