2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:57 am
I would hardly call a 21-race non-retirement streak "high risk". He's driving quite good lately.
This year he's drive better than he ever had. Perhaps it's the lack of pressure from a team mate challenge. But he's certainly been at his best. The 21 race non retirement streak, if you haven't been watching... he's had a whole bunch of incidents where he should have retired due to piss poor judgement, but luck be a lady tonight, his car stayed in one piece enough to make it to the finish like.
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

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jumpingfish
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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No one noticed Raikkonen after collision with Max hit his front left wheel so precisely as sniper :D Was it Kimi's revenge? :D

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:50 pm
Irrespective of who was at fault, it was Max who lost out. Early last year I would have expected it of him, this year I am disappointed as he seemed to be taking the long view and common sense.
Even If kimi was deemed responsible got a double drive through, 10 second stop and go and sent to the back of the grid for the rest of the year it would not benefit Max at all.
He should have weighed up the odds and found them wanting. Had it been Bottas, the odds would change as loss of points in both cases is more acceptable.

Still, I am sure it will be filed away in hos mind and considered in future races.

It was Max who lost out? Kimi was on for a high points finish for a team that matters massively to and finished well well down the order, but Max lost out?

https://streamable.com/1pbnv

Max is half way alongside and Kimi is still just around the middle of very slightly left of middle of the track, he hasn't even begun to turn in, Max is easily considered alongside before Kimi turns in. The idea Kimi can't see him is frankly nonsense, the idea that Kimi is entitled to the apex is crazy, the idea that Max should just ignore a gaping massive hole like that and slow down for no reason is even more absurd.

Kimi had a truly ridiculous amount of space and time to see Max and stop turning in towards the apex, and even if he couldn't see the inside it's the start, when you chop to the apex without being sure if anyone is there you are begging for an accident. Conversely if you are fully alongside and someone is way way further over there is exactly no reason to expect or react as if that guy will chop to the apex.

Max wasn't out of control, he wasn't locked up, he wasn't so fast he couldn't react. AS I've said before he was so far in control that he managed to slow further and tried to go across the curb to avoid Kimi but Kimi just kept turning in and didn't react there at all.

AS for saying he should do it later, if it was a risky move maybe there would be a point but no one assumes that when more than half way alongside someone is just going to turn into you, then no one would ever make a pass on the inside of any corner and if it's okay for a guy on the outside to simply turn into a guy on the inside making a valid pass, then that's plainly insane.


When I see drivers who constantly change line and get into multiple accidents in T1 at the start of a race, and other drivers who maintain their lines and all the ones who maintain their lines while going side by side avoiding contact, the blame becomes pretty easy to appoint, but apparently I guess hatred for Max means leaving space on the inside is no longer necessary and you can chop into whoever you want.

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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:06 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:50 pm
Irrespective of who was at fault, it was Max who lost out. Early last year I would have expected it of him, this year I am disappointed as he seemed to be taking the long view and common sense.
Even If kimi was deemed responsible got a double drive through, 10 second stop and go and sent to the back of the grid for the rest of the year it would not benefit Max at all.
He should have weighed up the odds and found them wanting. Had it been Bottas, the odds would change as loss of points in both cases is more acceptable.

Still, I am sure it will be filed away in hos mind and considered in future races.

It was Max who lost out? Kimi was on for a high points finish for a team that matters massively to and finished well well down the order, but Max lost out?

https://streamable.com/1pbnv

Max is half way alongside and Kimi is still just around the middle of very slightly left of middle of the track, he hasn't even begun to turn in, Max is easily considered alongside before Kimi turns in. The idea Kimi can't see him is frankly nonsense, the idea that Kimi is entitled to the apex is crazy, the idea that Max should just ignore a gaping massive hole like that and slow down for no reason is even more absurd.

Kimi had a truly ridiculous amount of space and time to see Max and stop turning in towards the apex, and even if he couldn't see the inside it's the start, when you chop to the apex without being sure if anyone is there you are begging for an accident. Conversely if you are fully alongside and someone is way way further over there is exactly no reason to expect or react as if that guy will chop to the apex.

Max wasn't out of control, he wasn't locked up, he wasn't so fast he couldn't react. AS I've said before he was so far in control that he managed to slow further and tried to go across the curb to avoid Kimi but Kimi just kept turning in and didn't react there at all.

AS for saying he should do it later, if it was a risky move maybe there would be a point but no one assumes that when more than half way alongside someone is just going to turn into you, then no one would ever make a pass on the inside of any corner and if it's okay for a guy on the outside to simply turn into a guy on the inside making a valid pass, then that's plainly insane.


When I see drivers who constantly change line and get into multiple accidents in T1 at the start of a race, and other drivers who maintain their lines and all the ones who maintain their lines while going side by side avoiding contact, the blame becomes pretty easy to appoint, but apparently I guess hatred for Max means leaving space on the inside is no longer necessary and you can chop into whoever you want.
The point I am making is that it does not matter who is to blame, Max lost out and was (slightly more of the two) in a position 'not to go there'. In his early time this is exactly what he would have done, this year he has usually seen that 'discretion is the better part of valor' and used his head to gain overall

Who ever was to blame max lost out and he could have avoided it.
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Max has a rabid fan base...one that thinks he is incapable of bad judgement. Fact is...all racers can (and do) make mistakes. I also think Max's fans think any criticism of him is an impugnment of his ability...hardly. Personally,I think his raw talent is unmatched on the current grid and given equal equipment, none of today's drivers would beat him.

Unfortunately, this sport does not offer parity in equipment nor circuits that are conducive to overtaking. That, and he has a father and team hierarchy that have always encouraged his "elbows-out" style...thus, the unapologetic dive bomb. In this most recent Spa case...bad start leads to the "red mist" leads to ultra late braking leads to...ouch!

Usually, Max's dives are orchestrated with the 2 cars converging on a much sharper angle resulting in the outside car serving as "bumpstop" (often "bumpstopped" into a spin or right off the track). This convergence with Kimi was much more obtuse and the resulting energy dissipation manifested into much different results.

Looking back at 18 Brazil, Max vs. Ocon, this incident also did not end well for him, horrific floor damage. Yet Max continued to drive the wheels off that car. This kid can drive!

nacho
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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This isn't the first and the last start crash in La Source. I think there's been a crash almost every year.

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Scorpaguy wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:19 pm
Max has a rabid fan base...one that thinks he is incapable of bad judgement. Fact is...all racers can (and do) make mistakes. I also think Max's fans think any criticism of him is an impugnment of his ability...hardly. Personally,I think his raw talent is unmatched on the current grid and given equal equipment, none of today's drivers would beat him.

Unfortunately, this sport does not offer parity in equipment nor circuits that are conducive to overtaking. That, and he has a father and team hierarchy that have always encouraged his "elbows-out" style...thus, the unapologetic dive bomb. In this most recent Spa case...bad start leads to the "red mist" leads to ultra late braking leads to...ouch!

Usually, Max's dives are orchestrated with the 2 cars converging on a much sharper angle resulting in the outside car serving as "bumpstop" (often "bumpstopped" into a spin or right off the track). This convergence with Kimi was much more obtuse and the resulting energy dissipation manifested into much different results.

Looking back at 18 Brazil, Max vs. Ocon, this incident also did not end well for him, horrific floor damage. Yet Max continued to drive the wheels off that car. This kid can drive!

Literally multiple people in this thread are saying he's run out of talent, hasn't grown up, didn't make these mistakes before, other drivers don't make them and similar. They literally are impugning his ability.

But he went for a MASSIVE gap, with a better car, when Kimi left the door wide open then when he was miles alongside Kimi smashed the door shut despite the rules of racing saying Kimi has to leave space there. One guy changed line, one guy turned into another guy who was there and only one guy wasn't entitled to space there.

THe convergence was obtuse, because Kimi changed from a middle line to cutting about 3 cars width across the track into him and being completely ignorant of the fact a car was on his inside. Kimi was no where near committed to that line before Max was up the inside.

In what situation is going into a minimum 3 car wide gap... risky, or dangerous, or anything bad, where as when is turning directly into a car alongside you completely fine?

I'm also if anything more of a Hamilton fan, but really just a fan of anyone who drives fast and well, I don't do nationality (I'm english) I don't care what a driver is like away from the track and I don't really care who wins races beyond deserving it/being the fastest guy on the day. Kimi has a history of multiple turn one incidents much like this, as does Vettel, and people always seem to blame the people who happen to get in their way of treating the first corner like it was the middle of the race with no one around them. The blind defending of a guy who cut across the track to an apex he wasn't entitled to and the blind blame for someone who had all the space in the world that every driver in a faster car with better brakes would take is crazy to me.

The Racing Point pulled out not because of Kimi, but because Max was faster, in a better car he knew could easily out brake him. Kimi just decided Racing point gone, tracks probably clear (it wasn't) and turned in blindly.

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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:56 pm
Scorpaguy wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:19 pm
Max has a rabid fan base...one that thinks he is incapable of bad judgement. Fact is...all racers can (and do) make mistakes. I also think Max's fans think any criticism of him is an impugnment of his ability...hardly. Personally,I think his raw talent is unmatched on the current grid and given equal equipment, none of today's drivers would beat him.

Unfortunately, this sport does not offer parity in equipment nor circuits that are conducive to overtaking. That, and he has a father and team hierarchy that have always encouraged his "elbows-out" style...thus, the unapologetic dive bomb. In this most recent Spa case...bad start leads to the "red mist" leads to ultra late braking leads to...ouch!

Usually, Max's dives are orchestrated with the 2 cars converging on a much sharper angle resulting in the outside car serving as "bumpstop" (often "bumpstopped" into a spin or right off the track). This convergence with Kimi was much more obtuse and the resulting energy dissipation manifested into much different results.

Looking back at 18 Brazil, Max vs. Ocon, this incident also did not end well for him, horrific floor damage. Yet Max continued to drive the wheels off that car. This kid can drive!

Literally multiple people in this thread are saying he's run out of talent, hasn't grown up, didn't make these mistakes before, other drivers don't make them and similar. They literally are impugning his ability.

But he went for a MASSIVE gap, with a better car, when Kimi left the door wide open then when he was miles alongside Kimi smashed the door shut despite the rules of racing saying Kimi has to leave space there. One guy changed line, one guy turned into another guy who was there and only one guy wasn't entitled to space there.

THe convergence was obtuse, because Kimi changed from a middle line to cutting about 3 cars width across the track into him and being completely ignorant of the fact a car was on his inside. Kimi was no where near committed to that line before Max was up the inside.

In what situation is going into a minimum 3 car wide gap... risky, or dangerous, or anything bad, where as when is turning directly into a car alongside you completely fine?

I'm also if anything more of a Hamilton fan, but really just a fan of anyone who drives fast and well, I don't do nationality (I'm english) I don't care what a driver is like away from the track and I don't really care who wins races beyond deserving it/being the fastest guy on the day. Kimi has a history of multiple turn one incidents much like this, as does Vettel, and people always seem to blame the people who happen to get in their way of treating the first corner like it was the middle of the race with no one around them. The blind defending of a guy who cut across the track to an apex he wasn't entitled to and the blind blame for someone who had all the space in the world that every driver in a faster car with better brakes would take is crazy to me.

The Racing Point pulled out not because of Kimi, but because Max was faster, in a better car he knew could easily out brake him. Kimi just decided Racing point gone, tracks probably clear (it wasn't) and turned in blindly.
"miles along side"...not. Watch the onboards. At one point Kimi had a car length on Max. Racing Point, also ahead of Max but behind Kimi, backs out or gets out-braked, Kimi follows Ham's line into corner (a normal line), Max impacts Kimi ahead of rear wheel. Corner was Kimi's until dive bomb. If Max had a 3-car gap, Kimi, ahead of Max, had a 4-car gap.

Aside from the first 60 meters, at no time was the RB anywhere to be seen in the Alfa on-board...Max had full view of the Alfa during the whole incident. However, we will never agree on this due to aforementioned reasons...but do not group me into those impugning Max's driving ability. As much as I love to hate him, I freely admit he will be a multiple WDC one day.

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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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I agree on that there are quite some max fans out there that think he can do nothing wrong (including several Dutch commentators), but there just as well is a group (on this site, too) that thinks he can do nothing right - that any incident he is involved in is by default to blame on him, whether it's a racing incident like this, or even when the other party was obviously at fault. Both sides are incredibly tiring.

epo
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Soo, it must have been a shitty year for all those haters. People running out of their cave because finally a Max incident, YES!
If you read this you know if that is you.

This is racing, yes Max could have braked earlier but Kimi could have used his mirrors, he has more of these kind of incidents and not looking. Anyways Max should have known this and waited, couldn't have won this race anyways maybe the reason why he tried.

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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Let's just say for a moment that incident was 100% Kimi's fault, so what? That's still a DNF for Verstappen, one that was very avoidable IMO.

He could do one of two things now. Look at that incident, and say "yeah I could have avoided being taken out" and next time, play things a little different. OR, look at that incident and say "it was his fault, and I would do it exactly the same again even if the outcome was the same".

Sure, you can be the first lap hero, but that's not always the way to win championships. Max clearly has the speed and ability to get the results over the race distance. Avoiding the avoidable incidents like this, regardless of who is at fault, is how he will win championships. Credit where credit is due, this year has been a big improvement over last year in this department.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:05 pm
Let's just say for a moment that incident was 100% Kimi's fault, so what? That's still a DNF for Verstappen, one that was very avoidable IMO.

He could do one of two things now. Look at that incident, and say "yeah I could have avoided being taken out" and next time, play things a little different. OR, look at that incident and say "it was his fault, and I would do it exactly the same again even if the outcome was the same".

Sure, you can be the first lap hero, but that's not always the way to win championships. Max clearly has the speed and ability to get the results over the race distance. Avoiding the avoidable incidents like this, regardless of who is at fault, is how he will win championships. Credit where credit is due, this year has been a big improvement over last year in this department.
I think Verstappen's own reaction was the right one. "I took a risk, braking late when there was a gap, Kimi didn't see me and we made contact which was a shame (not exactly his words, but in this line), plus a comment that racing wasn't important that day.

That whole class of 19-22 year olds lost one of their own the days before, on the track where they had to race. I think it took balls for all of them to step in their cars that day, especially Leclerc, who had his fair share of losses and Gasly.

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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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epo wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:16 pm
This is racing, yes Max could have braked earlier but Kimi could have used his mirrors, he has more of these kind of incidents and not looking.
You realize because of how the mirrors are configured, Kimi would not have seen Max right? F1 mirrors are for looking for cars directly behind you, or in close proximity next to you, like the racing point for example.

Any driver in Kimi's position would have assumed the inside was clear when the racing point backed of and switched to trying to go around the outside. They would not expect another car to be even further to the inside, as a car that far in has a very compromising exit trajectory.


In his own comments, Max said Kimi probably didn't see him.......
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Juzh wrote:ricciardo 360 kmh :shock:
https://streamable.com/1j5mr
Appreciate that, always nice to see theese onboards! According to the max speeds KVY hit 356km/h at the end of S1 so he might achieved a higher top speed than RIC. Any footage to confirm? Thanks!!

Enviado desde mi ONEPLUS A5010 mediante Tapatalk


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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Pretty insane discussions .. Hubert's fatal accident, Lec's first win, Seb being Barrichelloed, Albons more than decent 1st race, a sharp Gasly back in TR, Hulk beating Ric, very good result by Perez etc ..
And yet, it's page after page about 2 guys hitting each other at La Source, 8secs after the lights went out.
Just some dumb racing incident that could have easily been avoided by both, but simply was not.

As said above; these youngsters saw one of their own check out .. weird weekend in that sense.
Sunshine is just a choice ...