2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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roon
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:44 pm
I agree on that there are quite some max fans out there that think he can do nothing wrong (including several Dutch commentators), but there just as well is a group (on this site, too) that thinks he can do nothing right - that any incident he is involved in is by default to blame on him, whether it's a racing incident like this, or even when the other party was obviously at fault. Both sides are incredibly tiring.
Thanks for writing this. The bandwagoners kill the race threads. The theme of the website is lost. Scattered amongst the pro-bono driver adverts you have the consistent good posters, giving tire data, weather info, lap onboards. You posters know who you are, and I thank you even though I rarely get to see your posts for avoiding all the fan nonsense.

Fulcrum
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:56 pm

Literally multiple people in this thread are saying he's run out of talent, hasn't grown up, didn't make these mistakes before, other drivers don't make them and similar. They literally are impugning his ability.
Actually, that's not what most people are saying. People are pointing out he made these types of judgement calls more often 2 years ago than has been the case this year. Verstappen has exercised far more discretion when attempting an overtake this year, especially at the beginning of the race. And his results prove that this strategy scores more points in the long run.

But he went for a MASSIVE gap, with a better car.
He had a better car, he could have easily passed Kimi along the Kemmel straight. No need for having to place your trust in another driver's rear view mirrors.


In what situation is going into a minimum 3 car wide gap... risky, or dangerous, or anything bad?
When the cars are 3-abreast, following different lines to the apex of the corner. Little, or no, room for error. Any misjudgement from any one of the drivers involved leads to poor outcomes for all involved, and you only work this out after the accident has happened.
Last edited by Fulcrum on Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Juzh
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Quantum Hais wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:01 am
Appreciate that, always nice to see theese onboards! According to the max speeds KVY hit 356km/h at the end of S1 so he might achieved a higher top speed than RIC. Any footage to confirm? Thanks!!

Enviado desde mi ONEPLUS A5010 mediante Tapatalk
he did 356 and no more
viewtopic.php?p=858279#p858279

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Fulcrum wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:56 am
drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:56 pm

Literally multiple people in this thread are saying he's run out of talent, hasn't grown up, didn't make these mistakes before, other drivers don't make them and similar. They literally are impugning his ability.
Actually, that's not what most people are saying. People are pointing out he made these types of judgement calls more often 2 years ago than has been the case this year. Verstappen has exercised far more discretion when attempting an overtake this year, especially at the beginning of the race. And his results prove that this strategy scores more points in the long run.

But he went for a MASSIVE gap, with a better car.
He had a better car, he could have easily passed Kimi along the Kemmel straight. No need for having to place your trust in another driver's rear view mirrors.


In what situation is going into a minimum 3 car wide gap... risky, or dangerous, or anything bad?
When the cars are 3-abreast, following different lines to the apex of the corner. Little, or no, room for error. Any misjudgement from any one of the drivers involved leads to poor outcomes for all involved, and you only work this out after the accident has happened.
I didn't say most people are saying that so that's rather irrelevant.

The he had a better car so could have easily passed Kimi on the Kemmel straight argument is a moot point as well. He has a better car, that doesn't mean he had a higher straight line speed.

But if someone will turn into you when they have to leave you space at the apex, then they can turn into you when they have to leave you space on the straight but ultimately his only chance of passing on the kemmel straight would actually be getting alongside and outbraking him into the corner, so you've moved the decision a couple of corners down the track. So it's okay to pass and expect space at the end of the straight, but it's not okay to expect the space in T1 even though T1 is a larger corner which can easy take 2 or 3 cars going side by side through the corner.

On the last part, again that's not what I said. I said he was making a move into the corner with 3 cars width gap, not 3 cars abreast. The track can take pretty much 5-6 cars abreast. Into the corner the Racing point backed off as the car outside was ahead AND he had a faster car on the inside so he wasn't winning out either way, he was third favourite. Once he backed out there was at leats a 3 cars width gap JUST for Verstappen.

Kimi has to leave space, if he leaves space that is a 100% safe move, if he doesn't leave space it doesn't matter where on the track you're going to make the pass if the other guy isn't going to drive safely.


Some weekends everyone brings out the "if you see a gap and don't go for it you're not a racer" to excuse half the grid of anything they do, this weekend Verstappen goes into a literally massive gap. going into the braking zone he's the only car on the right side of the track, Kimi is on the left half of the track. You're supposed to ignore a half empty track because a guy on a way outside line will chop to the apex?

Again in all the responses I've seen, not one person has said why it's okay to chop to the apex when a guy is on your inside before you've even turned in. Not one person has said why, when you start on the outside at the start when you can be 85% certain there will be traffic around you, it's safe or sensible for Kimi to chop directly to the apex. I've seen no one say why if someone will chop you off on T1 it makes sense to pull the exact same move into a tighter corner elsewhere, why does that become safer?

WHy is it almost every driver leaves space and doesn't erratically change lines at the start and they avoid accidents and those who consistent change line cause accidents... is the guy who changed line and hit someone (again) completely absolved of all blame.

I keep seeing basically, Verstappen is young, Verstappen ran out of talent, Verstappen could have passed elsewhere, Verstappen could have waited, etc, etc, etc. But no one is actually making a comment about why Kimi doing something dangerous, reckless, having no idea of if the inside was clear but chopping to the apex was fine.

Kimi starts on the outside, he has a Racing Point on the inside and at least two cars width on his inside that Kimi has to think there could be a car there not least because... he saw a car there before. Because he KNEW Verstappen was on the inside because he went by him earlier. If he stays wide he's basically completely safe... but it's up to Verstappen to know he'll get chopped rather than it's on Kimi to keep to a safer sensible line considering where he started.

Anyway, I give up, I won't respond again but maybe others can give a genuine answer to explain why what Kimi did was absolutely fine. Apparently Verstappen knew it could happen so should have avoided it, but not one person (aside from me) has given the same for Kimi, saying he knew someone could be on the inside and he could easily have stayed wide on the line he went into the corner and been completely safe.

notsofast
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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From lap 2 onward, whenever there is a gap somewhere, there is usually just one driver who is near enough to be able to go for that gap. On lap 1, there are often multiple drivers who are in close proximity to a gap. When they all go for the gap, you end up with the usual lap 1 racing incident. Especially in turn 1. There is so much going on on lap 1 that you cannot know where all the other drivers are and what they are doing. However, if you see a gap, you can be fairly confident that there are others who see the same gap. That goes for both Kimi and Max.

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turbof1
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Racing incident, guys. We have to move on. The race was much more than that.

Also can we appreciate that was the 5th race in a row where we had very decent racing?
#AeroFrodo

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Scorpaguy wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:49 am
Verstappen at Spa, lap one, turn one = total dive bomb. No way Max could have slowed and avoided contact regardless of Kimi's line.

Max's signature move...and he did not deny such afterwards.
Yup, after the standard rant about him being right and everyone else being wrong on the radio in the heat of the moment, he definitely had had a rethink before he spoke to the media and gave as much as an admission as a driver is ever likely to that he probably wasn't wise to have done that, and it wasn't Kimi's fault.

FWIW I think you have to put this one on Max. It's the first corner. Drive sensibly and then use your superior car to make it back up into the top 5-6 positions. Short term pain vs long term gain. He's made strides, but he really got to shake this all or nothing mentality once and for all.

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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:41 am
Fulcrum wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:56 am
drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:56 pm

Literally multiple people in this thread are saying he's run out of talent, hasn't grown up, didn't make these mistakes before, other drivers don't make them and similar. They literally are impugning his ability.
Actually, that's not what most people are saying. People are pointing out he made these types of judgement calls more often 2 years ago than has been the case this year. Verstappen has exercised far more discretion when attempting an overtake this year, especially at the beginning of the race. And his results prove that this strategy scores more points in the long run.


I didn't say most people are saying that so that's rather irrelevant.

...
No, you didn't say "most", you said, "literally multiple people". If you accept that most people aren't saying these things about Verstappen, then it implies they're only a minority opinion. So what's the problem?

As per Turbo, its a racing incident, meaning both parties bear responsibility for the accident. The end.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Both drivers took a risk, both drivers ruined their race.

It’s a shame for all those fans who came to Spa though.

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Starscreamer
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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For me it was a race incident between Max & Kimi
#33 2 THE MAX V3RSTAPP3N

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TAG
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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NL_Fer wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:59 am
Both drivers took a risk, both drivers ruined their race.

It’s a shame for all those fans who came to Spa though.
Saved thousands of orange smokes sticks being set off though.
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Fulcrum wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:38 am
drunkf1fan wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:41 am
Fulcrum wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:56 am


Actually, that's not what most people are saying. People are pointing out he made these types of judgement calls more often 2 years ago than has been the case this year. Verstappen has exercised far more discretion when attempting an overtake this year, especially at the beginning of the race. And his results prove that this strategy scores more points in the long run.


I didn't say most people are saying that so that's rather irrelevant.

...
No, you didn't say "most", you said, "literally multiple people". If you accept that most people aren't saying these things about Verstappen, then it implies they're only a minority opinion. So what's the problem?

As per Turbo, its a racing incident, meaning both parties bear responsibility for the accident. The end.
How is that is the case?? lol. Kimi didn't even know Max was dive bombing a mile away. Max had all the information and watching Kimi's line in front of him in 8K.

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RZS10
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:06 pm
https://streamable.com/1pbnv
Such an extreme slow mo doesn't really tell the full story, especially since you very conveniently cut out the crucial part where he's already one and a half cars behind Kimi at the beginning of the braking zone and is braking far later than anyone else whilst being on the inside line (and he'd have to brake earlier to take a tight line through the corner) which put him into the position he was in ...

Here's the entire sequence:
https://youtu.be/7sIkMy-17hY?t=52

The main thing one can criticise is him forcing the move because he lost out on the start. I also believe the RP played a crucial role in the incident (regarding visibility and the line Kimi took ... Perez did the sensible thing to bail out btw).

I know everyone has said everything they wanted to say about that situation and we already have a mod telling us to move on but i'll still post the following gifs and pictures since i had most of the work done on them yesterday :P

First of all, the composition, i think apart from the last few frames which are a bit messy due to the massive change in camera zoom and mainly cam movement it's quite precise:
Image

Here's Max and Kimi isolated with lines indicating their positions in each frame
Image

Here's both of them isolated in a gif
Image

Max only got his front tyre alongside Kimi's rear towards the end of the braking zone - i believe if this was an overtake in the race it would be hard to disagree that it would be a very late lunge. But then again, it would also be fair to say that in such a case Kimi should have known he's going for it and shouldn't have closed the door as hard.

Here's Perez and Max isolated:
Image

A perfectly fine overtaking manoeuvre.

Now throw them all together and you get this:
Image

The lines they took
Image

Without the cars
Image

Both Max and Kimi stayed on their respective lines, Max on the inside, Kimi moving towards the apex from the start, Perez bailing once he realized it could get messy, Kimi starting to turn in at that point.

Kimi did not expect Max to be on the inside, i think that's fair to assume (also based on the surprise in his voice), he had Sergio right on his tail to his right and tried to make clear he'd take a narrow line early on, once Sergio got out of there (quite late) Max was probably in a position where Kimi did not see him in his mirrors.

Here's just Kimi and Perez:
Image

It's quite easy to see that Kimi turns in once the car he was fighting for position disappears.

So in the end we have Kimi who turns in quite early and leaves no space on the inside and Max who goes for the preferred move of online racing lobbies - a late lunge into the first corner of the first lap.

Kimi at least has the excuse of the Racing Point bailing, thus giving him the impression he's clear to turn in - Max however has no excuse - this doesn't take any blame away from either driver.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:43 pm
drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:06 pm
https://streamable.com/1pbnv
Excellent graphics dude. Good job, thanks
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roon
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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drunkf1fan wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:06 pm
https://streamable.com/1pbnv
What is the sporting reg here? Car alongside, squeezed partly off track toward barrier. This is part of the reasoning behind why Seb was given a 5 s penalty in Canada. Car alongside, squeezed partly off-track toward barrier.

I don't mean to comment on stewards here. They wont always be consistent. But for the discussion & arguments: Kimi did squeeze a car alongside toward the barrier a la Seb-Hamilton.

At a certain point the squeezed driver sometimes cannot get out--can't go left or right for collision, can't go forward or back for collision (tires interference), and the onus is upon the squeezing driver to provide space to avoid collisions. For their own benefit as well as their opponent's.