2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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NL_Fer
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Yes degradation was higher than Mercedes, but soft (and heavy) having a longer durability, than medium (and light) is unusual. Maybe it was the low temps on sunday.

PhilS13
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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pb6797 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:57 pm
I wondered this too but also couldn't figure out what was up with Ferrari's tyre degradation.
I think the mediums were operating on the cold end of the working range, not graining but still too cold for comfort. The core temperature is not providing enough grip and in the end you are forced to use more tyre slip than you'd like. I guess that comes with the same type of thermal degradation that you have when leaning against the warm end of the working range.
dans79 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm
My assumption would be they were worried about a potential undercut. Lewis had a really bad stop, 3.6 seconds if memory serves. If he had had a normal Merc stop (2.2-2.4) and the undercut, he would have probably been within 1 to 1.5 seconds of Charles, as they both closed in rapidly on Vettel.

Ferrari would want to avoid this type of situation at all costs.
The gap was +4.0 when LEC came in, LEC stretched that to +7.0 with the bad Merc pitstop and 1 lap undercut. That means undercut alone was worth 2 seconds... It sounds close but I don't recall teams feeling the urge to cover when they are 2 seconds clear of the undercut range. Even at Spa. About VET I don't recall exactly when but we heard them say he was going to play the team game. I don't think catching up to him with a Merc close behind was considered a big problem for them.
NL_Fer wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:23 pm

Softs were not fine. The times looked ok, because the fuel becoming lighter compensated for tyre degradation. Both Leclerc and Hamilton were allot faster after the stop.

With such long laps, Hamilton could have jumped him with a undercut. They had to react, and who would have thought the mediums would burn up that day in 20 laps.
Softs were fine in terms of : the gap to the Merc was steady, which is the only thing that really mattered. Already VET laptimes were far from stellar on the mediums, only 5 laps in, surely they already felt they were not a great tyre for them to be on for 23 laps.

Anyway I'm not entirely convinced but yeah they might have been simply scared of an undercut or losing a bit of on track gap at that stage and had complete confidence on the mediums. It's still an extremely rare sight to see a leader initiate a pitstop sequence from 4 second ahead, even at Spa, probably there aren't many examples of that happening.

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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notsofast wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:59 am
From lap 2 onward, whenever there is a gap somewhere, there is usually just one driver who is near enough to be able to go for that gap. On lap 1, there are often multiple drivers who are in close proximity to a gap. When they all go for the gap, you end up with the usual lap 1 racing incident. Especially in turn 1. There is so much going on on lap 1 that you cannot know where all the other drivers are and what they are doing. However, if you see a gap, you can be fairly confident that there are others who see the same gap. That goes for both Kimi and Max.
Which is exactly why when a driver is very wide, he should assume there could be cars he can't see on the inside and should stay on a wider line and not chop to the inside. Likewise a driver on the inside should not suddenly swing out to a wide line even if it's a corner where a wider line would provide a better exit.

See Germany and the Haas's making contact for this. AT the hairpin if Magnussen was on his own then if he ends up tighter he wants to swing out wide but he knew Grosjean was there so he stayed tight on the inside. Conversely Grosjean knew Mag was there but cut stupidly tight and they wheel banged.

This is precisely why I'm irked by everyone's view. AT the start Kimi can't know there is someone on the inside but he goes straight to the apex. This is fundamentally wrong in racing, it's fundamentally dangerous. He knew his position, he knew where the racing point was. The racing point gave up a fundamentally better line, he was partially alongside and inside him so he had a right to the corner over him... why did he give it up? Because there was a car alongside him on the inside line and he realised there was the outside car that might do something silly and an inside car that he didn't have better position on so he gave it up. Kimi thinks the guy with 2 cars widths on his inside is the only car there and when he backs out bang the apex is free.

Again it's super simple, in races where people are out wide and they assume there is someone on the inside, they take a wider line leave space and don't get in an accident. In races where someone is wide and cuts to apex or is inside and swings out wide... we have crashes.

For me it's on every car to unless they can physically see the other lines are clear, to leave space and Kimi is the one who didn't do that.

As for the arguments of where Max was before the braking zone it's all rather irrelevant, where Max is when Kimi turns in is more relevant because if you can't make a late braking move into bagloads of space without being given space on the inside of the turn... you completely and utterly brake racing as a whole. People out braking on the inside is a staple of motorsport everywhere.

Everyone seems to be suggesting that if this was lap 30 then Kimi would know Max was around and making a move so he'd give space but at the start he doesn't know he's there so... it's fine to make a dangerous move? If you don't know, leave space, the idea that because it's the start, and because he doesn't know he's there it becomes okay to make a dangerous chop is madness.

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RZS10
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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I think at this point you are arguing with yourself there by misrepresenting what "everyone's view" is tbh.

Most seem to agree that both made a mistake and both are to blame (which is clearly the case here).

dans79
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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PhilS13 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:23 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm
My assumption would be they were worried about a potential undercut. Lewis had a really bad stop, 3.6 seconds if memory serves. If he had had a normal Merc stop (2.2-2.4) and the undercut, he would have probably been within 1 to 1.5 seconds of Charles, as they both closed in rapidly on Vettel.

Ferrari would want to avoid this type of situation at all costs.
The gap was +4.0 when LEC came in, LEC stretched that to +7.0 with the bad Merc pitstop and 1 lap undercut. That means undercut alone was worth 2 seconds... It sounds close but I don't recall teams feeling the urge to cover when they are 2 seconds clear of the undercut range. Even at Spa. About VET I don't recall exactly when but we heard them say he was going to play the team game. I don't think catching up to him with a Merc close behind was considered a big problem for them.
I went back and checked live timing.

Lap 21 : Lewis is 4.078 behind right as Charles pits
Lap 23 : Lewis is 7.067 behind when he exits the pits

That's a 2.989 second loss. 1.2 seconds to the bad pit stop, and 1.789 seconds because of the undercut Charles got.

If Lewis had pitted first and undercut Charles, and had a normal pit stop, then he would have only been 2.289 behind when Charles exited the pits.

Right Before Charles passes Vettel, Lewis was only 4.889 behind. So Lewis cut Charles lead by 7.067 - 4.889 = 2.178 seconds. if we do the math 2.289 - 2.178 = 0.111 seconds.

In other words If Lewis had pitted first, and got the same undercut as Charles, he would have been all over Charles gearbox when he caught Vettel. That's a very risky senario, because Lewis could have easily gotten past one or both of them. if anything went wrong with the swap.

Ferrari knew Mercedes had better race pace, and they knew Mercedes was much better on the mediums form Fridays long runs.

Honeslty, I think this is why Binotto was very reserved in the post race. They won because they got their strategy perfect, and Mercedes made some mistakes. namely, a slow pit stop, Lewis going wide in the final chicane, and a missed undercut opportunity.
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SiLo
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Mercedes confirmed they ran their engines in a conservative mode after the failures during the weekend. And still pushed Ferarri hard for the win.

I think Monza will be very entertaining!
Felipe Baby!

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jumpingfish
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:59 am

Honeslty, I think this is why Binotto was very reserved in the post race. They won because they got their strategy perfect, and Mercedes made some mistakes. namely, a slow pit stop, Lewis going wide in the final chicane, and a missed undercut opportunity.
Also Vettel helped to make Ham a bit slower for 4-5sec =D>

Justthatek
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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dans79 wrote:
PhilS13 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:23 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm
My assumption would be they were worried about a potential undercut. Lewis had a really bad stop, 3.6 seconds if memory serves. If he had had a normal Merc stop (2.2-2.4) and the undercut, he would have probably been within 1 to 1.5 seconds of Charles, as they both closed in rapidly on Vettel.

Ferrari would want to avoid this type of situation at all costs.
The gap was +4.0 when LEC came in, LEC stretched that to +7.0 with the bad Merc pitstop and 1 lap undercut. That means undercut alone was worth 2 seconds... It sounds close but I don't recall teams feeling the urge to cover when they are 2 seconds clear of the undercut range. Even at Spa. About VET I don't recall exactly when but we heard them say he was going to play the team game. I don't think catching up to him with a Merc close behind was considered a big problem for them.
Honeslty, I think this is why Binotto was very reserved in the post race. They won because they got their strategy perfect, and Mercedes made some mistakes. namely, a slow pit stop, Lewis going wide in the final chicane, and a missed undercut opportunity.
The reason why he was probably reserved is because of the death the day before rather than jumping around and celebrating note how Charles was for his first victory completely the opposite of how you'd be if you had finished P1 in normal circumstances.



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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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jumpingfish wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:43 am
dans79 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:59 am

Honeslty, I think this is why Binotto was very reserved in the post race. They won because they got their strategy perfect, and Mercedes made some mistakes. namely, a slow pit stop, Lewis going wide in the final chicane, and a missed undercut opportunity.
Also Vettel helped to make Ham a bit slower for 4-5sec =D>
Vettel definitely played a big part in Charles win thats for sure.

1 thing I totally disagree with is, when some say Vettel held Lewis back to help Charles win. This is nonsense. Seb held Lewis back simply because he is a racing driver and doesnt want to let anyone pass him. Every driver would do the same, he was fighting for 2nd position at the time, then after Ham got past, it made sense to pit agaian as Bottas was going to follow Lewis through, so 4th was always going to be Sebs finishing position, and a new set of tyres helped Vettel get the extra point for fastest lap.
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Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:45 pm
jumpingfish wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:43 am
dans79 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:59 am

Honeslty, I think this is why Binotto was very reserved in the post race. They won because they got their strategy perfect, and Mercedes made some mistakes. namely, a slow pit stop, Lewis going wide in the final chicane, and a missed undercut opportunity.
Also Vettel helped to make Ham a bit slower for 4-5sec =D>
Vettel definitely played a big part in Charles win thats for sure.

1 thing I totally disagree with is, when some say Vettel held Lewis back to help Charles win. This is nonsense. Seb held Lewis back simply because he is a racing driver and doesnt want to let anyone pass him. Every driver would do the same, he was fighting for 2nd position at the time, then after Ham got past, it made sense to pit agaian as Bottas was going to follow Lewis through, so 4th was always going to be Sebs finishing position, and a new set of tyres helped Vettel get the extra point for fastest lap.
I was rather surprised at how 'happy' Seb was to 'tailgun' for Charles. There didn't seem to be a complaint about switching places or 'acting as a team mate' (shall we say :mrgreen:)

Something in Seb's head has settled for a new role, and I do not mean second fiddle every race, but a team mentality rather than must win at all costs.
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dans79
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:50 pm
Something in Seb's head has settled for a new role, and I do not mean second fiddle every race, but a team mentality rather than must win at all costs.
There has been rumors for months that he is going to retire, maybe he finally made a decision. :lol:

j/k

Most likely it was because he knew he didn't have charles pace, so he had no really way of keeping him behind even if he wanted to.
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F1NAC
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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SiLo wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:30 am
Mercedes confirmed they ran their engines in a conservative mode after the failures during the weekend. And still pushed Ferarri hard for the win.

I think Monza will be very entertaining!
Well take into account tyre wear plus older, worn Ferrari PU against fresh spanking new PU from Mercedes.

But yes we could easily see repeat of 2018 Raikkonen/Hamilton.. where Ferrari could run out of tyre again.

Also Ferrari will need again 1-2 in qualies to hold eventually faster Merc behind.

ispano6
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Just rewatched this race and was reminded that Leclerc won his first race with an illegal engine. Too bad his record is tainted, but lucky his results and points weren't wiped.

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_cerber1
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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ispano6 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:34 am
Just rewatched this race and was reminded that Leclerc won his first race with an illegal engine. Too bad his record is tainted, but lucky his results and points weren't wiped.
Nowhere was it claimed that Ferrari's PU was illegal. #-o

sosic2121
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Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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_cerber1 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:16 am
ispano6 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:34 am
Just rewatched this race and was reminded that Leclerc won his first race with an illegal engine. Too bad his record is tainted, but lucky his results and points weren't wiped.
Nowhere was it claimed that Ferrari's PU was illegal. #-o
One wonders how many championships were won with illegal oil burning engines...