2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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dans79
dans79
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
I still don't understand what Abu Dhabi has to do with sensors and cheating, when it happened after second sensor.
If someone is tricking the fuel flow sensor and using more fuel than the rules allow, then the car has to have more fuel onboard. The FIA compares what the fuel flow meter says was used during the course of the race, to the pre race manual measurement minus the post race manual measurement. Thus the fuel load report would have to be falsified or the numbers wouldn't match.
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
My question would be, why pirelli changed the tyres?
For a few races in 2018 this is why.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... kU2KA.html
Pirelli found in pre-season testing that the new asphalt at Spain’s Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya produced more grip and less tyre wear, which means more rubber stayed on the tyre which in turn can lead to surface overheating.

As Great Britain’s Silverstone and France’s Paul Ricard circuits also feature new asphalt for this season, like Barcelona, Pirelli opted to reduce the tread depth, and therefore the amount of rubber on the tyre, for those three races.

“This was a recommendation that we ourselves brought to the FIA – as we have done in the past at some races – because it is less disruptive than nominating harder compounds, which was the alternative,” said Pirelli’s Head of Car Racing, Mario Isola.
Vettel had this to say about the thinner tires after being able to compare them the the old tires back to back.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13605 ... or-ferrari
"Normally you don't get the chance to revisit these kind of decisions that are made," he said.

"But we did now with the day that we had today, and I think the result is that, if we had the normal tyres on Sunday, we'd probably even be worse off.

"So I think it was the correct call, and it was our fault not to have the same tyre wear or life as other people."
For 2019 they used thinner treaded tires for every race, Because all teams naturally gain downforce and power every season. If they had used the thicker treaded tires used in most of the races in 2018, teams overheating the tires would have probably been the norm.

Look at this year so far, teams are running less downforce than the normally would because the tires can't handle what the teams are now able to generate.
161 97 92 6

holeindalip
holeindalip
14
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

dans79 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:44 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
I still don't understand what Abu Dhabi has to do with sensors and cheating, when it happened after second sensor.
If someone is tricking the fuel flow sensor and using more fuel than the rules allow, then the car has to have more fuel onboard. The FIA compares what the fuel flow meter says was used during the course of the race, to the pre race manual measurement minus the post race manual measurement. Thus the fuel load report would have to be falsified or the numbers wouldn't match.
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
My question would be, why pirelli changed the tyres?
For a few races in 2018 this is why.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... kU2KA.html
Pirelli found in pre-season testing that the new asphalt at Spain’s Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya produced more grip and less tyre wear, which means more rubber stayed on the tyre which in turn can lead to surface overheating.

As Great Britain’s Silverstone and France’s Paul Ricard circuits also feature new asphalt for this season, like Barcelona, Pirelli opted to reduce the tread depth, and therefore the amount of rubber on the tyre, for those three races.

“This was a recommendation that we ourselves brought to the FIA – as we have done in the past at some races – because it is less disruptive than nominating harder compounds, which was the alternative,” said Pirelli’s Head of Car Racing, Mario Isola.
Vettel had this to say about the thinner tires after being able to compare them the the old tires back to back.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13605 ... or-ferrari
"Normally you don't get the chance to revisit these kind of decisions that are made," he said.

"But we did now with the day that we had today, and I think the result is that, if we had the normal tyres on Sunday, we'd probably even be worse off.

"So I think it was the correct call, and it was our fault not to have the same tyre wear or life as other people."
For 2019 they used thinner treaded tires for every race, Because all teams naturally gain downforce and power every season. If they had used the thicker treaded tires used in most of the races in 2018, teams overheating the tires would have probably been the norm.

Look at this year so far, teams are running less downforce than the normally would because the tires can't handle what the teams are now able to generate.
Thank you, I don’t have the time to post all the links but mucho gracias!!!

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:33 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:51 pm

I am confused a little bit here.
What overheating electronics in Bahrain has to do with cheating?
So in USA Ferrari stopped cheating and lost performance, but fuel discrepancie from Abu Dhabi is proof that they were cheating in for example Spa?
Yeah they were pulsing the fuel pump in between the fuel flow sensor readings (hz) so it wouldn't register. Imo they were using the control electronics in this somehow, remember vettel had another failure with this in Russia.in Abu Dhabi they lied to the fia about the amount of starting fuel they put in leclercs car, this was after the second sensor was installed. Some how they were trying to flow more fuel than allowed by having more start fuel than they told the fia. And the 2019 spa race is the first race after the summer break before the us gp
AFAIK CE controls electric side of the PU, not engine side.
Also in Russia IIRC Vettel lost MGUK.
Have they been cheating the sensor? Maybe. Maybe not. Even FIA does not know. I believe this rumour started when RB informed FIA that sensor could be tricked.
I still don't understand what Abu Dhabi has to do with sensors and cheating, when it happened after second sensor.

IMO Ferrari lost their 2019 chances when pirelli changed the tyres, which solved mercedes' tyre problems, and created problems for everyone else. Their low drag concept was developed after 2017, when they had fast race car which, but were loosing due to Mercedes Q performance(especially since following and overtaking was not possible in 2017).

My question would be, why pirelli changed the tyres? Is there political game behind the scenes where this was arranged?
It certainly forced Ferrari to change their concept to high DH. Now Ferrari lost straight line performance, but suddenly is benchmark in tyre performance. Of course, now they lost couple of years of development and they are crap everywhere else.

Ferrari we’re trying to cover up their lack of Pace since the second fuel flow sensor got put in

User avatar
Moore77
26
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:03 am

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:56 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:33 pm


Yeah they were pulsing the fuel pump in between the fuel flow sensor readings (hz) so it wouldn't register. Imo they were using the control electronics in this somehow, remember vettel had another failure with this in Russia.in Abu Dhabi they lied to the fia about the amount of starting fuel they put in leclercs car, this was after the second sensor was installed. Some how they were trying to flow more fuel than allowed by having more start fuel than they told the fia. And the 2019 spa race is the first race after the summer break before the us gp
AFAIK CE controls electric side of the PU, not engine side.
Also in Russia IIRC Vettel lost MGUK.
Have they been cheating the sensor? Maybe. Maybe not. Even FIA does not know. I believe this rumour started when RB informed FIA that sensor could be tricked.
I still don't understand what Abu Dhabi has to do with sensors and cheating, when it happened after second sensor.

IMO Ferrari lost their 2019 chances when pirelli changed the tyres, which solved mercedes' tyre problems, and created problems for everyone else. Their low drag concept was developed after 2017, when they had fast race car which, but were loosing due to Mercedes Q performance(especially since following and overtaking was not possible in 2017).

My question would be, why pirelli changed the tyres? Is there political game behind the scenes where this was arranged?
It certainly forced Ferrari to change their concept to high DH. Now Ferrari lost straight line performance, but suddenly is benchmark in tyre performance. Of course, now they lost couple of years of development and they are crap everywhere else.

Ferrari we’re trying to cover up their lack of Pace since the second fuel flow sensor got put in
And you were there, witnessing it?
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

holeindalip
holeindalip
14
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

Moore77 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:07 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:56 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm

AFAIK CE controls electric side of the PU, not engine side.
Also in Russia IIRC Vettel lost MGUK.
Have they been cheating the sensor? Maybe. Maybe not. Even FIA does not know. I believe this rumour started when RB informed FIA that sensor could be tricked.
I still don't understand what Abu Dhabi has to do with sensors and cheating, when it happened after second sensor.

IMO Ferrari lost their 2019 chances when pirelli changed the tyres, which solved mercedes' tyre problems, and created problems for everyone else. Their low drag concept was developed after 2017, when they had fast race car which, but were loosing due to Mercedes Q performance(especially since following and overtaking was not possible in 2017).

My question would be, why pirelli changed the tyres? Is there political game behind the scenes where this was arranged?
It certainly forced Ferrari to change their concept to high DH. Now Ferrari lost straight line performance, but suddenly is benchmark in tyre performance. Of course, now they lost couple of years of development and they are crap everywhere else.

Ferrari we’re trying to cover up their lack of Pace since the second fuel flow sensor got put in
And you were there, witnessing it?
Yes

User avatar
Moore77
26
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:03 am

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:16 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:07 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:56 pm



Ferrari we’re trying to cover up their lack of Pace since the second fuel flow sensor got put in
And you were there, witnessing it?
Yes
No wonder, the world believes in Santa Claus.
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

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NathanOlder
158
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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On the subject of Ferraris PU at this race, along with Monza and Singapore. If Ferrari didn't have their boost in power, Lewis would have won all 3! That would have put him on 91 wins, same as Michael.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS4.

tangodjango
tangodjango
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:38 pm

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

Moore77 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:17 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:16 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:07 pm
And you were there, witnessing it?
Yes
No wonder, the world believes in Santa Claus.
No wonder there are also flat earthers!
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

holeindalip
holeindalip
14
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:34 pm
On the subject of Ferraris PU at this race, along with Monza and Singapore. If Ferrari didn't have their boost in power, Lewis would have won all 3! That would have put him on 91 wins, same as Michael.
Yeah it didn’t turn out that way though. We will see how it turns out this year....

User avatar
Moore77
26
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:03 am

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

tangodjango wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:41 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:17 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:16 pm


Yes
No wonder, the world believes in Santa Claus.
No wonder there are also flat earthers!
And there are cheerleaders too!
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

tangodjango
tangodjango
41
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:38 pm

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

Moore77 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:18 am
tangodjango wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:41 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:17 pm
No wonder, the world believes in Santa Claus.
No wonder there are also flat earthers!
And there are cheerleaders too!
Cheerleaders of common sense? Sure! Have to be to counter balance the conspiracy theorist's!
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

User avatar
Moore77
26
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:03 am

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

tangodjango wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:34 am
Moore77 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:18 am
tangodjango wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:41 pm


No wonder there are also flat earthers!
And there are cheerleaders too!
Cheerleaders of common sense? Sure! Have to be to counter balance the conspiracy theorist's!
Oh, then good luck talking to yourself. :lol:
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

tangodjango
tangodjango
41
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:38 pm

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

Moore77 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:55 am
tangodjango wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:34 am
Moore77 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:18 am
And there are cheerleaders too!
Cheerleaders of common sense? Sure! Have to be to counter balance the conspiracy theorist's!
Oh, then good luck talking to yourself. :lol:
Right back at ya!
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

sosic2121
sosic2121
19
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

dans79 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:44 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
I still don't understand what Abu Dhabi has to do with sensors and cheating, when it happened after second sensor.
If someone is tricking the fuel flow sensor and using more fuel than the rules allow, then the car has to have more fuel onboard. The FIA compares what the fuel flow meter says was used during the course of the race, to the pre race manual measurement minus the post race manual measurement. Thus the fuel load report would have to be falsified or the numbers wouldn't match.
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:10 pm
My question would be, why pirelli changed the tyres?
For a few races in 2018 this is why.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... kU2KA.html
Pirelli found in pre-season testing that the new asphalt at Spain’s Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya produced more grip and less tyre wear, which means more rubber stayed on the tyre which in turn can lead to surface overheating.

As Great Britain’s Silverstone and France’s Paul Ricard circuits also feature new asphalt for this season, like Barcelona, Pirelli opted to reduce the tread depth, and therefore the amount of rubber on the tyre, for those three races.

“This was a recommendation that we ourselves brought to the FIA – as we have done in the past at some races – because it is less disruptive than nominating harder compounds, which was the alternative,” said Pirelli’s Head of Car Racing, Mario Isola.
Vettel had this to say about the thinner tires after being able to compare them the the old tires back to back.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13605 ... or-ferrari
"Normally you don't get the chance to revisit these kind of decisions that are made," he said.

"But we did now with the day that we had today, and I think the result is that, if we had the normal tyres on Sunday, we'd probably even be worse off.

"So I think it was the correct call, and it was our fault not to have the same tyre wear or life as other people."
For 2019 they used thinner treaded tires for every race, Because all teams naturally gain downforce and power every season. If they had used the thicker treaded tires used in most of the races in 2018, teams overheating the tires would have probably been the norm.

Look at this year so far, teams are running less downforce than the normally would because the tires can't handle what the teams are now able to generate.
I don't agree with some of your statements.

I understand why would you carry more fuel. But why would you do it in Abu Dhabi you can't cheat any more!?

Vettel had few different statements about thin tyres. This was debated before.

I don't think tyres can't handle the DF. This might be the problem with "thick" tyres. But Ferrari had to change their concept to high DF to preserve the tyres.

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siskue2005
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Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:47 pm

I don't agree with some of your statements.

I understand why would you carry more fuel. But why would you do it in Abu Dhabi you can't cheat any more!?

The second fuel flow measuring sensor was to be used from 2020 onwards only, not from Abudabhi 2019