2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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Jolle
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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yes, Leclerc moved under breaking and the stewards did deemed it a bad move, hence the black/white flag. It was a very lenient penalty, but also a indication that this was not ok.

And for all this "it's the sim that made them do it", Hamilton , Raikkonen and Alonso are maybe very clean, but the generation before that had no trouble putting someone in the wall at high speed, "forget' to brake with the world title at play or using their car as a roadblock. And lets nog forget Rosberg with his pushing people off track in a straight line.

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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rogazilla wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:20 pm
I have been waiting for this to turn into a debate with graphs (frame by frame analysis) and videos like we had in Austria for Max's move on LeClerc. Guess people don't have the same enthusiasm when Max is not involved.
Braking and moves on a straight are and have always been treated differently to those in a corner and specifically in corner exit.

The natural way to corner is to swing out wide to the exit, everyone does this every lap on every corner when in single file so if someone commits to a normal corner and then someone makes a late move around the outside the guy in first already committed to a speed and angle that will take them out wide. This is why there are discussions about when and where the outside car needs to be to deserve room on exit, which over the years was generally held to be roughly level or slightly ahead at the apex to deserve room on exit. This is because someone late on the outside will rarely be level or ahead at the apex of the guy on the inside so if it's a late overtake attempt on the outside you can't punish the guy who went into the corner ahead for not being able to break the laws of physics and reduce his speed massively without simply losing the car mid corner. If someone on the inside gets ahead by corner entry then it's rare the move won't have started before or into the braking zone, again leaving the guy on the outside time to react and reduce speed, also with more space on the outside to slow and turn away from a tight line.

On a straight the rules were pretty much always perfectly clear. You can't just block side to side repeatedly. If someone gets alongside you can't run them off the road and while you can move back towards the racing line for the corner you must leave a cars width of space if there is a car in, or practically in that space.

Straight lines are simple, you won't lose the car if you stay straight, the back end won't go out, you won't understeer or oversteer. THe rules for space on a straight are ridiculously simple and straightforward, the rules in space on corner exit are significantly more complex and open to interpretation.

Implying that people are less interested because they are all Max fanboys and wanted to prove him wrong, or Ferrari fan boys wanting to prove Max was in the wrong and no one wants to talk about this is frankly ridiculous. The Leclerc move was so black and white, with no shades of grey that they literally waved a black and white flag for it. The only question really is that the stewards were too weak to punish it appropriately. After the stink Ferrari caused at Canada over a frankly also ridiculous move from Vettel (far far worse than what Leclerc did), the sport as a whole was simply to afraid to take another win from Ferrari and in particular at Monza.

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Zarathustra
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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Hamilton just tried a ‘ballsy’ move on the outside- which was never going to work.. he should have known better as well- after all he’s a 5time WDC.

cooken
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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Yes, never except for the same exact move on a Ferrari last year.

Stop the victim blaming. There is every right to take that space and NEVER the overtakes fault for getting pushed off track under braking once alongside.

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izzy
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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SiLo wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:03 pm
The last time someone did that and the person on the outside didn't move, there was a crash. Hamilton should know, he did it to Kobayashi back in Spa in 2011 at the end of the Kemmel Straight.

Hamilton got real luck here, he was saved by the curb on the outside offering up some much needed grip. If there was no curb there I think he might have spun into the wall.
It was Koba who turned in, the analysis showed. It's on YT. But this time i bet Lewis half expected to be put off and was ready for it

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siskue2005
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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Zarathustra wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:56 pm
Hamilton just tried a ‘ballsy’ move on the outside- which was never going to work.. he should have known better as well- after all he’s a 5time WDC.
Please see the videos below and tell me what a racer would do! and how hard racing they all did, including the defending drivers and how clean everyone were at the same corner











So according to you Lewis should have stayed behind Leclerc even when he got his front wheel to the level of bargeboards of Leclerc's car! :lol:

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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Zarathustra wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:56 pm
Hamilton just tried a ‘ballsy’ move on the outside- which was never going to work.. he should have known better as well- after all he’s a 5time WDC.
So how did it work 1 year earlier for him?

Or how did it work for Hulk on lap 1 against Vettel?

Never going to work #-o #-o #-o
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Zarathustra
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:36 pm
Zarathustra wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:56 pm
Hamilton just tried a ‘ballsy’ move on the outside- which was never going to work.. he should have known better as well- after all he’s a 5time WDC.
So how did it work 1 year earlier for him?

Or how did it work for Hulk on lap 1 against Vettel?

Never going to work #-o #-o #-o
Different situations.

What I also liked about Leclerc btw is his ‘erattic’ line on the straights.. to break the tow.

dans79
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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Zarathustra wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:58 pm
Different situations.
Um no, they where about as close to identical as you are going to get in the real world.

dtro
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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izzy wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:12 am
dtro wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:10 am

My fingers are crossed that you are correct about all of the above! I admit to becoming a bit jaded by Vettel's driving in post V8 era, among a few other things in F1 over the last several years. Hopefully Ferrari can put solidify their hold on second place in the WCC this year, barring a complete implosion of Max and the Mercs a lot of tracks may be tough to compete at the level they've competed in Spa and Monza this year. Plus Charles can't carry Ferrari even if he looks like he can more or less handle the pressure and deliver wins, they need someone else that can deliver consistently and perhaps less dramatically like you said 80 points thrown away each year.
Charles can 'carry' Ferrari i think, in the sense that now they know they have all the pieces of the puzzle and they just need an equal car not a better one. He's only 21 but making only the odd mistake already, he has charisma, speaks great Italian, looking faster and faster, that bit ruthless we see, and is hot af :) He will really motivate them, just like when Lewis moved down the pitlane to Mercedes the whole media circus moved with him and the team lit up, and Max of course has the same effect at Red Bull. So at last Ferrari can recover from Mattiacci insanely dumping Fernando.

Tho yes the second driver is a question, they ought to snap up Valtteri for 2021 while the going's good, this race showed he's No1 wingman as well didn't it.
To the extent that Charles appears to have the qualities of a world champion, I agree. He's aggressive, appears to learn from his mistakes, speaks Italian (ever so important for the Scud), a looker (more than Seb, Schumi or resting bitch Alonso), he's got pace, and so on. I agree, he could carry them to a WDC. I'm just unsure of their ability to actually win a WCC with their current lineup. I wouldn't want to see Bottas at Ferrari frankly, as I doubt he could handle the responsibility/is a tad inconsistent. In fact out of the remaining top three I only see Hamilton or Verstappen actually being able to deal. Neither Williams, Haas, TR, Alfa, RP has a suitable replacement for Vettel. Arguably one of the Renault boys or McLaren boys could bring it, but that will probably have to wait.

As a result of that these blips in good performance at Spa and Monza don't inspire me quite as much, it's the usual case of too little too late.

I want to see the Red stable succeed, don't get me wrong. I'm just hyper critical haha.

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F1Krof
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:51 am
People want hard racing? yes!
This is hard racing into the same corner!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1vKQij7g4s
and This is hard racing into the same corner!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwg5wQ0YghY

and This is hard racing into the same corner!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MtObN6TP6U

and this NOT hard racing, but moving under braking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8bzG6r9ji0

I have never seen someone move so much under braking into that corner and the funny part is everyone are hailing him as the second coming of f1 god and not even condeming his actions! The new era of f1 drivers are from the sim racing era so we can expect this.
Totally agree here.

I posted a while back ago, when Mac and Leclerc had their going in Austria, I said that it was gonna set a bad precedent going forward, it will murk the waters just as they were cleaned up.

This 'hard' racing is no racing at all. I watched the race with my feyonce, she's clueless about F1, yet eve she complained "why's the red car not leaving enough space for the silver shinny car? Are they allowed to bump each other out the track? That looks unfair and dangerous". I swear to God these were her unbaised words.

But all that aside, again, what marshall in the world would dare to punish Leclerc at Monza? Unbelievable.
And I'm saying this again, this is only going to escalate until we see some stupid accident, hopefully not fatale one, all this in the name of "Hard Racing" aka bumper car spectacle.
Wroom wroom

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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Zarathustra wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:56 pm
Hamilton just tried a ‘ballsy’ move on the outside- which was never going to work.. he should have known better as well- after all he’s a 5time WDC.
It was a perfectly reasonable move to attempt. Pushing him on to the grass in the braking zone was not reasonable.

If the move was "never going to work" then there was no need for Leclerc to play dirty, was there? :wink:
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dans79
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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Zarathustra wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:00 pm
Not everybody on track is intimidated by Hamilton- Hamilton just needs to get used to that, instead of starting from pole and cruise away in to the distance.
It has nothing to do with being intimidated By Hamilton, or any other driver for that matter. Its about following the rules laid down by the FIA.

Prior to the race is seems most drivers, (and the majority of fans) where under the impression that once a car had overlap on a strait, you had to leave them space as is made perfectly clear in the rules. If you don't understand the topic at hand, then perhaps you should go read the rule book.

hemichromis
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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You can see how Leclerc's driving changed after Austria, he learn't that he could be that aggressive and get away with it.

With that context it's understandable he only received a flag but a 5 sec penalty would have also been reasonable if I try and be as objective as possible. There is a rule covering this after all.

Formula 1 has to decided if it would prefer to see two cars going from corner to corner side my side trying to gain the advantage or tow cars meeting and one being bumped off the track.

I'd prefer the latter, I have always hated seeing Verstappen, Vettel and others bumping other cars off the track denying us the spectacle of a fair battle.

Noble29
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Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

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Zarathustra wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:56 pm
Hamilton just tried a ‘ballsy’ move on the outside- which was never going to work.. he should have known better as well- after all he’s a 5time WDC.
You do realise Leclerc was found guilty of breaking the rules, don't you? His punishment was the black and white flag. So he was actually guilty of squeezing Hamilton off the track.

If they drive to the rules, he puts Leclerc off the racing line to either try round the outside (see last year, or Hulk on Vettel lap 1 this year), or makes the angle of the corner more acute for Leclerc, to help setup a superior run out of the chicane.

It's coming across to me, and I suspect many others, that you just enjoy the fact it was Hamilton who lost out, rather than understanding driver should be racing to the rulebook, and fans get frustrated when rules are broken and the punishment is seemingly pointless.

The fact Masi says if theres contact in that scenario, then a harsher penalty would be applied, sets a dangerous precedent moving forward. Attacking driver has to decide whether to go off track and lose time being squeezed off the track illegally, but the first instance the defending driver gets away with it, or holds his ground and risks a DNF by contact in order to get the defending a driver a deserved proper penalty for breaking a rule.