2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Wouter
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Long time reader, first time poster, just wanted to counter some of the bs posted here.

Fact 1: Verstappen is a full carlength ahead at the braking zone.
Fact 2: At no point during the first corner does Hamilton come fully alongside Verstappen.
Fact 3: Verstappen is on the inside and always ahead.
Analysis: Verstappen has the inside line and can dictate the line, being the first corner of the race he should leave a carwidth space on the outside, which he does.

Fact 4: The initial contact is at the front between Hamiltons front wing and Verstappens left front tyre, causing Verstappens car to slide a bit and causing the 2nd contact at the rear.
Fact 5: Hamilton loses control, with benefit of the doubt this is because of the contact of the rear, although the loss of control is strangely a quarter count after the contact, instead of directly at the contact ( This could be due to break of contact or powerapplication at a wrong timing?)
Analysis: Verstappen has maybe a small oversteer of the curb, but corrects this well, he is actually trying to squeeze Hamilton to compromise his next left corner and gain advantage there. Hamilton doesnt want to be squeezed and keeps his line, the cars collide at the front. Hamilton is misdirecting at the Press conf. he clearly does not leave extra room for Verstappen. Verstappen being on the inside and ahead should not be at fault for choosing this line, since he leaves enough space on the outside.

Fact 6: Hamilton has lost control of his car, almost torpedoes Vettel and fully forces Verstappen of the track in the 2nd corner.
Analysis: this should have been investigated by the stewards, telemetry should point out the cause of Hamiltons loss of control.
However this is a racing incident due to 2 drivers claiming the same space at the first corner. If anyone is at fault it is Hamilton, being on the outside and behind and having a better view of Verstappens car then vice versa.
Very good analysis. Welcome @Oleo.

Peter Winsor, Joylon Palmer, Martin Brundle, Paul di Resta, etc said the same.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Long time reader, first time poster, just wanted to counter some of the bs posted here.

Fact 1: Verstappen is a full carlength ahead at the braking zone.
Fact 2: At no point during the first corner does Hamilton come fully alongside Verstappen.
Fact 3: Verstappen is on the inside and always ahead.
Analysis: Verstappen has the inside line and can dictate the line, being the first corner of the race he should leave a carwidth space on the outside, which he does.

Fact 4: The initial contact is at the front between Hamiltons front wing and Verstappens left front tyre, causing Verstappens car to slide a bit and causing the 2nd contact at the rear.
Fact 5: Hamilton loses control, with benefit of the doubt this is because of the contact of the rear, although the loss of control is strangely a quarter count after the contact, instead of directly at the contact ( This could be due to break of contact or powerapplication at a wrong timing?)
Analysis: Verstappen has maybe a small oversteer of the curb, but corrects this well, he is actually trying to squeeze Hamilton to compromise his next left corner and gain advantage there. Hamilton doesnt want to be squeezed and keeps his line, the cars collide at the front. Hamilton is misdirecting at the Press conf. he clearly does not leave extra room for Verstappen. Verstappen being on the inside and ahead should not be at fault for choosing this line, since he leaves enough space on the outside.

Fact 6: Hamilton has lost control of his car, almost torpedoes Vettel and fully forces Verstappen of the track in the 2nd corner.
Analysis: this should have been investigated by the stewards, telemetry should point out the cause of Hamiltons loss of control.
However this is a racing incident due to 2 drivers claiming the same space at the first corner. If anyone is at fault it is Hamilton, being on the outside and behind and having a better view of Verstappens car then vice versa.
Hi, welcome to the forum, or welcome back whichever it is.

Just something on your fact number 6, How about Hamilton is ahead, and on the inside of Verstappen, so now he can dictate the line as you put it. He has the right to run Max as far wide as he like now but you ignored that didn't you. As for torpedoing Seb, it didnt happen so its nothing to do with it.
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izzy
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:00 am
izzy wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:48 am
Has nobody else noticed Max STEERING out wider? I mean, taking lock off.

Seems clear enough to me, i haven't seen a single person mention it
Yeah, he almosts goes from full right hand lock to straight, back to full right lock again,

It was down to the bump over the curb, and the Max controlling the rear of the car. Still Max's fault, but thats what started the whole chain of events.
You're being too generous :) . Here it is, no oversteer what so ever! Look where the car is pointing (heading direct to T3!), where the wheels are pointing:
Image
edit here we are a second later, still Max's trajectory is all about easing Lewis off, compare with the McLaren:
Image
Last edited by izzy on Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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izzy wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:35 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:00 am
izzy wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:48 am
Has nobody else noticed Max STEERING out wider? I mean, taking lock off.

Seems clear enough to me, i haven't seen a single person mention it
Yeah, he almosts goes from full right hand lock to straight, back to full right lock again,

It was down to the bump over the curb, and the Max controlling the rear of the car. Still Max's fault, but thats what started the whole chain of events.
You're being too generous :) . Here it is, no oversteer what so ever! Look where the car is pointing (heading direct to T3!), where the wheels are pointing:
https://66.media.tumblr.com/01cd13d7140 ... b4d072.png
Yeah, Im sure your right. Im a Hamilton fan, so I'm just trying to not make it look like I'm bashing Max as it was against Lewis.
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izzy
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:39 am
Yeah, Im sure your right. Im a Hamilton fan, so I'm just trying to not make it look like I'm bashing Max as it was against Lewis.
yes i know, respect :) for me, i want to like Max as he's probably going to take over from Lewis, right now he's making it difficult and when i criticise i want people to understand why.

And btw he did exactly the same thing with Valtteri. VB steered away to make room, then Max opened the steering to make the block 100% but meanwhile VB had steered back in again

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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izzy wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:35 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:00 am
izzy wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:48 am
Has nobody else noticed Max STEERING out wider? I mean, taking lock off.

Seems clear enough to me, i haven't seen a single person mention it
Yeah, he almosts goes from full right hand lock to straight, back to full right lock again,

It was down to the bump over the curb, and the Max controlling the rear of the car. Still Max's fault, but thats what started the whole chain of events.
You're being too generous :) . Here it is, no oversteer what so ever! Look where the car is pointing (heading direct to T3!), where the wheels are pointing:
https://66.media.tumblr.com/01cd13d7140 ... b4d072.png
edit here we are a second later, still Max's trajectory is all about easing Lewis off, compare with the McLaren:
https://66.media.tumblr.com/fdd775f6e6a ... cbc873.png
Only those who are wearing Orange tinted glasses can argue Max was innocent in that incident, despite having clear video evidence.

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Long time reader, first time poster, just wanted to counter some of the bs posted here.

Fact 1: Verstappen is a full carlength ahead at the braking zone.
Fact 2: At no point during the first corner does Hamilton come fully alongside Verstappen.
Fact 3: Verstappen is on the inside and always ahead.
Analysis: Verstappen has the inside line and can dictate the line, being the first corner of the race he should leave a carwidth space on the outside, which he does.

Fact 4: The initial contact is at the front between Hamiltons front wing and Verstappens left front tyre, causing Verstappens car to slide a bit and causing the 2nd contact at the rear.
Fact 5: Hamilton loses control, with benefit of the doubt this is because of the contact of the rear, although the loss of control is strangely a quarter count after the contact, instead of directly at the contact ( This could be due to break of contact or powerapplication at a wrong timing?)
Analysis: Verstappen has maybe a small oversteer of the curb, but corrects this well, he is actually trying to squeeze Hamilton to compromise his next left corner and gain advantage there. Hamilton doesnt want to be squeezed and keeps his line, the cars collide at the front. Hamilton is misdirecting at the Press conf. he clearly does not leave extra room for Verstappen. Verstappen being on the inside and ahead should not be at fault for choosing this line, since he leaves enough space on the outside.

Fact 6: Hamilton has lost control of his car, almost torpedoes Vettel and fully forces Verstappen of the track in the 2nd corner.
Analysis: this should have been investigated by the stewards, telemetry should point out the cause of Hamiltons loss of control.
However this is a racing incident due to 2 drivers claiming the same space at the first corner. If anyone is at fault it is Hamilton, being on the outside and behind and having a better view of Verstappens car then vice versa.
Anything else to add other than what has already been "beaten to death argument"? It's beyond bs to lay blame on Hamilton, while clearly it was Max who torpedoed Hamilton. Take a look at all the videos posted here once again.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:20 am

Hi, welcome to the forum, or welcome back whichever it is.

Just something on your fact number 6, How about Hamilton is ahead, and on the inside of Verstappen, so now he can dictate the line as you put it. He has the right to run Max as far wide as he like now but you ignored that didn't you. As for torpedoing Seb, it didnt happen so its nothing to do with it.
Yes i agree, Hamilton can push Verstapen wide at corner exit if he is ahead and on the inside, however he completely misses the apex and forces Verstappen off way before corner exit, which makes it a problem for me.

Like i said, almost torpedoing, its not really relevant on itself, other than indicating, together with missing the corner, a loss of carcontrol.
GPR -A wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:57 am
Anything else to add other than what has already been "beaten to death argument"? It's beyond bs to lay blame on Hamilton, while clearly it was Max who torpedoed Hamilton. Take a look at all the videos posted here once again.
I think its clear from my post that i took a thorough look at the video-evidence. It seems difficult to me to torpedo an object thats behind and beside you. Your post makes no sense to me.
My post is mostly about correcting obvious falsehoods like first contact at the rear, max lost control and torpedoed Hamilton. I am not a fan of the current climate of ignoring simple fact for uninformed opinion. My analysis is just opinion, since the incident is a matter of 2 drivers fighting for the same space. I tend to give benefit of the doubt to the guy thats on the inside and ahead, over the guy thats on the outside and behind, regardless of who the drivers are.

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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Long time reader, first time poster, just wanted to counter some of the bs posted here.

Fact 1: Verstappen is a full carlength ahead at the braking zone.
At the 100m board, Hamilton has a part of his car alongside.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Fact 2: At no point during the first corner does Hamilton come fully alongside Verstappen.
Agreed.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Fact 3: Verstappen is on the inside and always ahead.
During Turn 1.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Analysis: Verstappen has the inside line and can dictate the line, being the first corner of the race he should leave a carwidth space on the outside, which he does.
In the immediate aftermath of the rear contact, there is not a carwidth space between Verstappen's left rear and the white line.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Fact 4: The initial contact is at the front between Hamiltons front wing and Verstappens left front tyre, causing Verstappens car to slide a bit and causing the 2nd contact at the rear.
Watching Verstappen's onboard, there is no audio or visual indication of this impact, no marking on Hamilton's front wing endplate and no immediate reaction on the steering wheel from Verstappen. It may also be significant that Verstappen has to take multiple bites which is not indicative of a front impact directly triggering a slide.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Fact 5: Hamilton loses control, with benefit of the doubt this is because of the contact of the rear, although the loss of control is strangely a quarter count after the contact, instead of directly at the contact ( This could be due to break of contact or powerapplication at a wrong timing?)
The pause is not dis-similar to that displayed by Verstappen. Why no commentary to that effect during 'Fact 4'?

Hamilton is travelling in an arc, it's difficult to rule whether the lateral rear impact is the deciding factor in the subsequent loss of control. I find the suggestion that the loss of adhesion is due to the different surface to be equally plausible.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Analysis: Verstappen has maybe a small oversteer of the curb, but corrects this well, he is actually trying to squeeze Hamilton to compromise his next left corner and gain advantage there. Hamilton doesnt want to be squeezed and keeps his line, the cars collide at the front.
Agree about the lines.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Hamilton is misdirecting at the Press conf. he clearly does not leave extra room for Verstappen.
This is a clear misrepresentation of what Hamilton said in the press conference.
"If you’ve seen races before, I always leave Max a lot of space – it’s the smartest thing you can do. But there wasn’t a lot of space to give him space."
Additionally, what drivers did or didn't say at the press conference is irrelevant to an analysis of the event as, best case scenario, witnesses in real time are unreliable. Why include it? And, having included it, why misrepresent it?
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Verstappen being on the inside and ahead should not be at fault for choosing this line, since he leaves enough space on the outside.
Up until the point of the impact, this is correct and will, therefore, apply to T2 now that Hamilton is in the lead, correct?
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Fact 6: Hamilton has lost control of his car, almost torpedoes Vettel and fully forces Verstappen of the track in the 2nd corner.
'Torpedoes' is yet another use of emotive language, characteristically used to discredit one of the two participants in this event.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Analysis: this should have been investigated by the stewards, telemetry should point out the cause of Hamiltons loss of control.
He neither hit Vettel nor caused Vettel to take evasive action. Why should this be investigated by the Stewards? If the Stewards should investigate all incidents where a loss of control led to a near-contact, why did you not call for a Stewards' investigation of Verstappen losing control and significantly damaging Hamilton's car, possibly contributing to this further loss of control? Again, you present a very clear and deliberate double-standard.
Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
However this is a racing incident due to 2 drivers claiming the same space at the first corner. If anyone is at fault it is Hamilton, being on the outside and behind and having a better view of Verstappens car then vice versa.
Having agreed it is a racing incident, you then go on to blame Hamilton, despite him being "on the inside and ahead should not be at fault for choosing this line." Nor do you make any mention of Verstappen steering into Hamilton's right rear as they both try to make the corner nor do you call for a Stewards' investigation into that contact.

Whilst you raise some interesting points, your post is disappointingly undermined by consistent but one sided use of language, manipulation of context and inconsistent standards exclusively applied to one driver.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Oleo wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:54 pm


Yes i agree, Hamilton can push Verstapen wide at corner exit if he is ahead and on the inside, however he completely misses the apex and forces Verstappen off way before corner exit, which makes it a problem for me.


But I bet you have no problem with Max doing it to Charles in Austria ? Max never made the apex and forced Charles off, but I didn't see you jumping to Charles defense in Austria.
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Wynters wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:54 pm
Whilst you raise some interesting points, your post is disappointingly undermined by consistent but one sided use of language, manipulation of context and inconsistent standards exclusively applied to one driver.
Yeah, almost reads like a lawyers closing statements.

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RZS10
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Seems like Oleo did not bother reading the thread properly ... i mentioned the contact at the front and the sequence of events 13 pages ago when i posted the heli cam gif and once again 4 pages back ... lol

His argument of "the driver ahead dictates the line" falls apart the moment Max has his slight oversteer over the curb because at that point he lost control for a split second which initiated the chain of events

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izzy
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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lol why do people keep rewarding the obvious vpn troll?

let's hope Lewis and Max kiss and make up this weekend, anyway

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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izzy wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:38 pm
lol why do people keep rewarding the obvious vpn troll?
=D> :lol:
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Re: 2019 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 25-27 October

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Lewis did not want to be squeezed one mm in turn 1 and fully squeezed Max in turn 2. How much room was left in T1 left of Lewis and how much right of Max in T2. Besides that Lewis went much deeper into the turn 1 braking. Also there he was more on the attack then Max who was being conservative.

You could simply call Lewis the winner here and the much more aggresive driver in this duel. But somehow were dancing through hoops both due to the post race PC Texts Outted as well as the thread regulars here. If someone signs up to try at least that says something.
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