2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:57 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:49 pm
Kimi gave Hulk just enough space to keep 1 tire on the white line, that is all that is required from both parties
Where did the notion come from that this is all that is needed?

You are ON TRACK when you touch the line with any tyre, yes - but as to "leaving space" ...

"Any driver [...] should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track [...] For the avoidance of doubt, the track edges [are] defined by white lines"
Read the rest of the rule that you quoted, that is written for a very specific circumstance that does not fit this situation. Kimi left more than enough room for Hulk to be considered "on track". Hulk did not use that room even though Kimi gave it to him, penalty deserved.

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RZS10
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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The "more than enough room" part isn't true in the first place - Kimi himself drove right up onto the white line, how do you fit another car there? Unless you want to argue that if they touched wheels Hulk could have theoretically been able to fit 1cm of tyre on there.

You can see Kimi's car on the line in both the team radio and best onboards video.

But anyways...

"2. Overtaking, car control and track limits
b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left. A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvers liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Pushing or other contact resulting in a lasting advantage is strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.
c) Drivers must use the track at all times. Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may re-enter the track. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. For the avoidance of doubt, the track edges may be defined by white lines, tyre stacks, marker poles or other devices defined by the Race Director if appointed by FIA or the clerk of the course during the briefing. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track, where lines indicate the track edge, or should the car pass behind"


That's the full quote ... how does that exclude the situation they were both in?

Kimi was defending through the corners 12, 13 and 14 - arguably the inside line Kimi took between 13/14 is the "defensive" line - the actual racing line is closer to Hulk's, using the outside curb between 13/14 and then slightly touching the curb exiting 14 on the left - so Kimi had been forced off-line and went back to the racing line out of corner 14.

There were other overtakes into 15 where drivers stuck to the outside through 13/14 like Hulk and were left enough space on track, which clearly did not happen here.

And if you believe he should have backed out ... at which point should Hulk concede? He's slightly ahead into 14 (and on the racing line) and fully alongside at the apex...

I think the decision was harsh (there was no 'penalty') and it was really bad how long they took to tell him afterwards which cost him a lot more time than needed.

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:14 am
The "more than enough room" part isn't true in the first place - Kimi himself drove right up onto the white line, how do you fit another car there? Unless you want to argue that if they touched wheels Hulk could have theoretically been able to fit 1cm of tyre on there.

You can see Kimi's car on the line in both the team radio and best onboards video.

But anyways...

"2. Overtaking, car control and track limits
b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left. A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvers liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Pushing or other contact resulting in a lasting advantage is strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.
c) Drivers must use the track at all times. Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may re-enter the track. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. For the avoidance of doubt, the track edges may be defined by white lines, tyre stacks, marker poles or other devices defined by the Race Director if appointed by FIA or the clerk of the course during the briefing. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track, where lines indicate the track edge, or should the car pass behind"


That's the full quote ... how does that exclude the situation they were both in?

Kimi was defending through the corners 12, 13 and 14 - arguably the inside line Kimi took between 13/14 is the "defensive" line - the actual racing line is closer to Hulk's, using the outside curb between 13/14 and then slightly touching the curb exiting 14 on the left - so Kimi had been forced off-line and went back to the racing line out of corner 14.

There were other overtakes into 15 where drivers stuck to the outside through 13/14 like Hulk and were left enough space on track, which clearly did not happen here.

And if you believe he should have backed out ... at which point should Hulk concede? He's slightly ahead into 14 (and on the racing line) and fully alongside at the apex...

I think the decision was harsh (there was no 'penalty') and it was really bad how long they took to tell him afterwards which cost him a lot more time than needed.
After reviewing the onboards it does indeed seem like Kimi took the full width of the track to the white line. For some reason, or just maybe in my mind, the overhead helo/crane shot showed alot more space(maybe a front tire's width). That I will absolutely concede. Strange, time to get the peepers checked. On the onboards I am unable to determine if Hulk was fully off track before or after Kimi touched the line.
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
This refers to straight line braking battles into corners, hence the first and last phrases "moving back towards the racing line" and " approach to the corner".

In the midst of a side by side battle thru a set of corners, if any driver has a "significant" amount of their car next to the other's on the entry of the corner. Then they must be given space to remain on track thru the middle and exit. Notice how teammates follow the rules just fine when battling, but then turn into Mad Max beyond Thunderdome when a different team's car is involved. I blame the FIA, who are too busy regulating helmets to establish, publish and enforce all complete list on racing rules which should cover F1 down thru the junior categories.

Wass85
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:23 am
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:42 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:25 pm


James Vowles confirmed it today. You can watch for yourself.

https://youtu.be/uzwyFgTNarc
Yes, it was only for his first run though. They rectified it for his second run but he couldn't improve.
No one improved on their second run did they?
Yes, I believe Max and Charles did.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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Wass85 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:34 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:23 am
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:42 pm


Yes, it was only for his first run though. They rectified it for his second run but he couldn't improve.
No one improved on their second run did they?
Yes, I believe Max and Charles did.
Could you post their times please?

Even our own forum summary says this:
Q3 was a tense affair, with the first laps proving those that count, as nobody actually managed to improve later on in the second attempts. This meant that Valtteri Bottas snatched pole position for Mercedes, topping Sebastian Vettel by just 0.012s.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Wass85
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:38 am
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:34 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:23 am

No one improved on their second run did they?
Yes, I believe Max and Charles did.
Could you post their times please?

Even our own forum summary says this:
Q3 was a tense affair, with the first laps proving those that count, as nobody actually managed to improve later on in the second attempts. This meant that Valtteri Bottas snatched pole position for Mercedes, topping Sebastian Vettel by just 0.012s.

I can't find the times for their first runs, I'm 99% certain Verstappen and Leclerc improved on their second runs.

Wass85
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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http://youtu.be/yAdisdY48XQ

Here it is, I was right.

Hamilton just didn't have the speed in qualifying.

zibby43
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:42 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:25 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:54 pm


Has the team stated how much time he lost?
James Vowles confirmed it today. You can watch for yourself.

https://youtu.be/uzwyFgTNarc
Yes, it was only for his first run though. They rectified it for his second run but he couldn't improve.
No, they didn't.

Wass85
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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zibby43 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:02 am
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:42 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:25 pm


James Vowles confirmed it today. You can watch for yourself.

https://youtu.be/uzwyFgTNarc
Yes, it was only for his first run though. They rectified it for his second run but he couldn't improve.
No, they didn't.
Yes they did Volwes stated so.

He said they noticed the problem as soon as Lewis came in at the end of the first run.

zibby43
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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Wass85 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:03 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:02 am
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:42 pm


Yes, it was only for his first run though. They rectified it for his second run but he couldn't improve.
No, they didn't.
Yes they did Volwes stated so.

He said they noticed the problem as soon as Lewis came in at the end of the first run.
There's a difference between noticing a problem, and fixing it.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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zibby43 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:07 am
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:03 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:02 am


No, they didn't.
Yes they did Volwes stated so.

He said they noticed the problem as soon as Lewis came in at the end of the first run.
There's a difference between noticing a problem, and fixing it.
Vowles did say they fixed it straight away when he returned to the garage after his first run in Q3.
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Wass85
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:09 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:07 am
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:03 am


Yes they did Volwes stated so.

He said they noticed the problem as soon as Lewis came in at the end of the first run.
There's a difference between noticing a problem, and fixing it.
Vowles did say they fixed it straight away when he returned to the garage after his first run in Q3.
Thankyou.

Wass85
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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You would have thought the that Lewis would have improved on his second run because of the problem in the first run.

Either the problem wasn't that bad or Lewis just had a really poor qualifying, either way Q3 was very lacklustre.

zibby43
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:09 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:07 am
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:03 am


Yes they did Volwes stated so.

He said they noticed the problem as soon as Lewis came in at the end of the first run.
There's a difference between noticing a problem, and fixing it.
Vowles did say they fixed it straight away when he returned to the garage after his first run in Q3.
"A mechanic spotted it immediately the second the car had come back in." - James Vowles.

Nowhere in the video (which I posted in this thread) did I hear Vowles say they fixed it.

And then you have the slightly conflicting testimony of when the team truly understood the extent of the problem:

"Hamilton hadn’t yet realised the crucial contributory cause of his sub-par couple of laps in Q3. “Sometimes you just don’t hit it. The start of my first lap was going really well but then I lost time on the exits of Turn 11, 12 and 13. On my second I abandoned after I lost a load of time at Turn Eight.” Subsequent investigation by the team centred around why his brake bias was constantly changing, as revealed on the telemetry. It was only then it was realised that he had inadvertently knocked off the bias switch cover, thereby allowing the bias to change whenever his hand made contact with it."

Regardless of whether they did fix it after the first run (who knows whether they had time to remove the wheel and perform a reliable fix in between Q3 runs), it's immaterial, as the first Q3 runs turned out to be the decisive ones, as the drivers that did improve on their second runs only did so marginally on the deteriorating track.

Wass85
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Re: 2019 United States Grand Prix - Austin, 1-3 November

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zibby43 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:15 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:09 am
zibby43 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:07 am


There's a difference between noticing a problem, and fixing it.
Vowles did say they fixed it straight away when he returned to the garage after his first run in Q3.
"A mechanic spotted it immediately the second the car had come back in." - James Vowles.

Nowhere in the video (which I posted in this thread) did I hear Vowles say they fixed it.

And then you have the slightly conflicting testimony of when the team truly understood the extent of the problem:

"Hamilton hadn’t yet realised the crucial contributory cause of his sub-par couple of laps in Q3. “Sometimes you just don’t hit it. The start of my first lap was going really well but then I lost time on the exits of Turn 11, 12 and 13. On my second I abandoned after I lost a load of time at Turn Eight.” Subsequent investigation by the team centred around why his brake bias was constantly changing, as revealed on the telemetry. It was only then it was realised that he had inadvertently knocked off the bias switch cover, thereby allowing the bias to change whenever his hand made contact with it."

Regardless of whether they did fix it after the first run (who knows whether they had time to remove the wheel and perform a reliable fix in between Q3 runs), it's immaterial, as the first Q3 runs turned out to be the decisive ones, as the drivers that did improve on their second runs only did so marginally on the deteriorating track.
I think it's safe to say Volwes would have emphasised that if they didn't fix it in time.

It's not immaterial really as those drivers that made small improvements didn't have problems on their first run.

You would think Lewis would have made a substantial improvement after his problem was fixed.