2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
Unc1eM0nty wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:50 pm
Bottas started in 2nd gear, did anyone else ?
Not if they’ve got any sense.
That´s not odd in wet conditions. Actually DeLa Rosa said before the start it´s quite common to limit whelspin

Restomaniac
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:05 am
mertol wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:21 am
So jumpstart detection system doing jack --- again #-o
I think it would have been extremelly unfair to punish Bottas. Common sense should always be applied, jump start detection is mean to avoid any driver taking advantage of a jump start, but going from 2nd to 6th none can argue he got any advantage
But that isn’t what they are saying. They are stating AGAIN that a sensor is the only way to judge and if it was to be faulty then they cannot anyway.

That’s what is so crazy. Even with modern 4K cameras looking from every possible angle they are still relying on a sensor that is a throwback to when it WAS the last line of defence to cheating.

This happened with Vettel last year and the FIA did nothing to fix it. #-o

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mertol
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:05 am
mertol wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:21 am
So jumpstart detection system doing jack --- again #-o
I think it would have been extremelly unfair to punish Bottas. Common sense should always be applied, jump start detection is mean to avoid any driver taking advantage of a jump start, but going from 2nd to 6th none can argue he got any advantage
He took advantage before and they still didn't do anything.

e30ernest
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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In drag racing (or at least how they did it here) they had 2 sensor beams. One was to signal the driver that their wheels are on the line (pre-stage) and a second beam to mark the actual start line. If you crossed the second beam before the lights go out, then you get a false start.

I wonder if the FIA system is similar. In that case, there is indeed a fair amount of leeway if the driver stages shallow (wheels just touching the starting line) so they could travel a bit further before they trigger the start/timing beam. This is why in drag racing, you go just before the lights go out. Your wheels would still spin and it'll take a few tenths/hundreds of a second before your car actually moves.

If the FIA system works like the above, then I can see why Bottas and Vettel did not trigger the sensor and get penalized. They could have been staged shallow to give them more room in case they do release the clutch a tad early.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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e30ernest wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:34 am


If the FIA system works like the above, then I can see why Bottas and Vettel did not trigger the sensor and get penalized. They could have been staged shallow to give them more room in case they do release the clutch a tad early.
The FIA system is a loop in the track's surface and a transponder on the car. The loop registers if the transponder moves. Or at least that's the idea. It shouldn't matter if the car isn't exactly over the loop, if it "sees" movement it should trigger an alert.

It appears that the FIA's system is either not very sensitive, or that it allows for the driver to move so long as they are still within the "box" denoted by the white lines at the front of the grid placing. If you look at the onboard, he moves forward but his front wheels are still behind the white line of his box at the moment the lights went out.

I'm going to guess that the system has a fuzzy edge to it to allow for the grids that are on slopes. Several tracks have the grid on slopes and the drivers do say you have to be careful not to roll backwards on some. Perhaps the system is fuzzy so that they don't get a false start alert for rolling backwards?
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e30ernest
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Yeah the way I see it, it just checks if the driver is within a "box". It doesn't necessarily have to be the start box itself. Maybe like the drag racing beams, they just sense if the car is at least touching the start line, and then checks that the car doesn't hit the end of the start line until the lights are out. So maybe depending on how far in a driver touches the line he'll have 3-5cms of leeway?

Restomaniac
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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If as is being suggested you have to actually roll out of the box to trigger then the drivers should just stop further back and start a slow roll forwards as the last light comes on. That’s as insane as the premise that if a drivers sensor isn’t working that he could get to turn 3 as the lights goes out and the current rules would allow it.

Relying on a sensor ONLY is living in the past. It’s a nice back up but shouldn’t be the only thing to use. The FIA’s rules in this are massively out of date. Current 4K cameras make them redundant.

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Phil
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:05 am
mertol wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:21 am
So jumpstart detection system doing jack --- again #-o
I think it would have been extremelly unfair to punish Bottas. Common sense should always be applied, jump start detection is mean to avoid any driver taking advantage of a jump start, but going from 2nd to 6th none can argue he got any advantage
It's not just about gaining an advantage; It's also about influencing other drivers around you by moving before you should.
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mertol
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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8.6.1 A false Start occurs when an Automobile:
8.6.1.b moves forward from the prescribed position before
the Start signal is given;
If the transponder can't sense it then either
36.14 Any of the penalties under Articles 38.3 a), b), or c) will be imposed on any driver who is judged
to have:
b) Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to
detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start signal
is given
or the transponders are --- and the system has to be improved.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:27 am
Current 4K cameras make them redundant.
Doesn't even need to be 4K really. A decent HD camera positioned to look at the front edge of each grid box would be sufficient. Place them on the pitwall opposite the respective grip positions and you're sorted. The beauty of the staggered grid is that the cameras can all be along one side so easy to set up/manage. Have the footage "watched" by a computer to see if there is any movement in the frame, flag any feed that shows movement and then have a human check the flagged feeds. As the first few laps are underway, all of the feeds can also be double checked by the human to ensure none is missed by the computer.
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Restomaniac
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Phil wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:37 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:05 am
mertol wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:21 am
So jumpstart detection system doing jack --- again #-o
I think it would have been extremelly unfair to punish Bottas. Common sense should always be applied, jump start detection is mean to avoid any driver taking advantage of a jump start, but going from 2nd to 6th none can argue he got any advantage
It's not just about gaining an advantage; It's also about influencing other drivers around you by moving before you should.
Yep. It’s why in athletics it’s only the first to move that’s get the penalty. Just like a sprinter in his blocks a driver is set to go.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:06 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
Unc1eM0nty wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:50 pm
Bottas started in 2nd gear, did anyone else ?
Not if they’ve got any sense.
That´s not odd in wet conditions. Actually DeLa Rosa said before the start it´s quite common to limit whelspin
Yeah actually I realised that shortly after I’d posted it, having totally forgotten the conditions of the start! However, I DID say it so I thought I had to leave it out there...

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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:03 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:04 am
Leclerc did have a blistering fast start from the right hand side.
He just passed Perez and Bottas, just Perez on merit (Bottas failed), both of them in the dirty side of the grid, and got passed by Max. I´d not call that a blistering fast start
He was quicker away on the first meters. It was not impossible to have traction on the right side of the grid. But they all got stuck on the inside behind eachother and especially behind Bottas who had a poor start followed up by a poor going into turn 1.
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wesley123
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:05 am
mertol wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:21 am
So jumpstart detection system doing jack --- again #-o
I think it would have been extremelly unfair to punish Bottas. Common sense should always be applied, jump start detection is mean to avoid any driver taking advantage of a jump start, but going from 2nd to 6th none can argue he got any advantage
Furthermore; he didn't even leave the starting box.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Wynters
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Re: 2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:14 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:03 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:04 am
Leclerc did have a blistering fast start from the right hand side.
He just passed Perez and Bottas, just Perez on merit (Bottas failed), both of them in the dirty side of the grid, and got passed by Max. I´d not call that a blistering fast start
He was quicker away on the first meters. It was not impossible to have traction on the right side of the grid. But they all got stuck on the inside behind eachother and especially behind Bottas who had a poor start followed up by a poor going into turn 1.
Perhaps very slightly, but Vettel is in no danger from him. Other than Leclerc, no driver on that side of the grid even managed an average start. By the time the field got to the first corner (which they could take three wide), they were already splitting into sections. Hamilton (clean side), then Stroll / Vettel / Verstappen (all clean side), then Leclerc / Bottas / Perez (all dirty side and have lost positions), then Sainz / Ricciardo (all clean side). The top six clean side of the grid starters make up six of the nine leading places and all of the leading four.*

Who is behind them? It's difficult to tell because of all the white liveried cars, but it's almost certainly Albon, Latifi and Kvyat. Why? Because they all started on the clean side of the grid. If I'm right (and the order FOM showed as Hamilton reaches turn 6 supports my supposition), then that's nine of the top twelve places already occupied by the time the field is rounding the first corner. There were only ten people starting on that side of the grid!

According to the leader board as Hamilton reached turn 6 (and bear in mind just how good his start was so how much of a lead he already had) this is the running order. I've coloured the people who started on the 'clean' side:-
Hamilton +0
Stroll +1
Verstappen +4
Vettel +1

Leclerc +1
Bottas -4
Perez -3
Sainz +1
Ricciardo +2
Latifi +5
Albon +2
Kvyat +5

Gasly -3
Norris -6
Raikkonen +5 (but really +3)
Russell -4
Ocon -3
Giovanizzi +1 (but really +0)
Magnussen
Grosjean

I'd rather have qualified 17th than 8th. Also, god only knows what Giovanizzi was doing.

*Pausing the overhead shot of Turn 1 with Stroll just exiting and Giovanizzi just entering, there's clear track around every car, no sign of any congestion or cars getting stuck. Even if there was, everyone other than Kimi and Max have already gained their positions.