2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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GPR-A
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:21 pm
good to now GPR, a slight increase in the fronts as opposed to last year. My point is that Silverstone 1 Merc had no blistering and with even lower pressures here they will be very unlikely to have those problems. Nor front tires ripping as the front pressures are up as compared to last year. Ideal!

I see you even edited your post with that last sentence. Good on you!
Did you consider the tyre compound changes from Silverstone 1 to Silverstone 2, along with tyre pressure increase?
With the level of downforce increase that Mercedes has from 2019 to 2020, the loads are obviously going to be far higher on the 2019 spec tyres that they are using.

dans79
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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It will be interesting, to see how the tires hold up in Spain. Regardless of what the talking heads in the media say, Spain does not work the tires the same way that Silverstone does.
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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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Oh I consider quite a lot. What I don't consider is constantly seeking the worst explanation in other's post (or editing my post with a "lure") later on. Something you shouldn't do either. Really, I mean it, more then willing to have a normal conversation with you.

Why would you think I did not notice the compound changed between the 2 silverstones. It was all that mattered and all we have been talking about these last days.

yes they are using the 2019 spec tires. I believe this was a unanimous call? I am not an expert but I believe having higher downforce allows for the tires to be pushed more into the asphalt and thus preventing sliding and preventing overheating and thus blistering. I do agree Merc has that (seems to have that) higher DF level. They were quickest through sector 2 all weekend and considerably so in Qualy, on the limit. Which would seem to confirm that.

I think the problem lies elsewhere. They have lower rake and as a consequence have a more limited suspension travel. Advantage is more predictable downforce levels (as the car is not coming in and out of rake all the time). But now the tires have to do more of the suspension job than with higher rake. That is I think were the hurt was. But this is all from reading other peoples post, not from any real understanding on my part. feel free to use that against me. :-) Just kidding, my request is to please treat me as a normal person, like if I was a Hamilton fan (which I am, but foremost a Max supporter).
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

sosic2121
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:41 pm
It will be interesting, to see how the tires hold up in Spain. Regardless of what the talking heads in the media say, Spain does not work the tires the same way that Silverstone does.
My guess is that we won't see another Silverstone no.2 this year. So I expect Mercedes to dominate, possibly with some minor tyre issues.

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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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Certainly Mercedes will fine tune the parameters (softer rear suspension set-up f.e.) at their disposal and that should mitigate the blistering. Plus we won't see soft tires on high energy circuits anymore. That was an exception as Pirelli FIA wanted a differentiator between the two races. The only thing that could stir it up for more races (not to that extent of course) is if RBR finds some more pace. Max was also quite clear about that post race. They still need to find a considerable chunk to stand any change of mounting a challenge.

They did also decide together with Honda to go for a new engine. If they run the engine for less races as originally planned there might be some pace in that (but a grid penalty later on).
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

Pany
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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sosic2121 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:51 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:41 pm
It will be interesting, to see how the tires hold up in Spain. Regardless of what the talking heads in the media say, Spain does not work the tires the same way that Silverstone does.
My guess is that we won't see another Silverstone no.2 this year. So I expect Mercedes to dominate, possibly with some minor tyre issues.
If mercedes introduces new second engine, will easily win 4 races in a row. If not, Max may compete and maybe win again, according to strategy

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GPR-A
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:49 pm
Oh I consider quite a lot. What I don't consider is constantly seeking the worst explanation in other's post (or editing my post with a "lure") later on. Something you shouldn't do either. Really, I mean it, more then willing to have a normal conversation with you.

Why would you think I did not notice the compound changed between the 2 silverstones. It was all that mattered and all we have been talking about these last days.

yes they are using the 2019 spec tires. I believe this was a unanimous call? I am not an expert but I believe having higher downforce allows for the tires to be pushed more into the asphalt and thus preventing sliding and preventing overheating and thus blistering. I do agree Merc has that (seems to have that) higher DF level. They were quickest through sector 2 all weekend and considerably so in Qualy, on the limit. Which would seem to confirm that.

I think the problem lies elsewhere. They have lower rake and as a consequence have a more limited suspension travel. Advantage is more predictable downforce levels (as the car is not coming in and out of rake all the time). But now the tires have to do more of the suspension job than with higher rake. That is I think were the hurt was. But this is all from reading other peoples post, not from any real understanding on my part. feel free to use that against me. :-) Just kidding, my request is to please treat me as a normal person, like if I was a Hamilton fan (which I am, but foremost a Max supporter).
I don't what you mean by editing your post with a "lure". Anyways.

2019 spec tyres, was not a choice for 2020. It was the failure of Pirelli to produce tyres that ALL teams wanted. Teams had asked for tyres that are less susceptible for thermal degradation and with wider working window. Neither of which Pirelli managed when it introduced 2020 tyres in 2019 testing. Because of which, teams rejected the 2020 tyres and as a consequence, Pirelli is using 2019 tyres now, which everyone knew, aren't ideal for 2020 due to increased downforce that teams would be adding for 2020. On top of that, Pirelli is increasing the pressures and making balloons. Higher pressures reduces contact patch for tyres and the smaller contact patch, has to take higher loads. So, for someone like Mercedes, they have enhanced the performance of the car, but now the tyres have lower contact patch than last year to handle bigger loads than last year! While the inner layer of tyre is getting a lot of temperature, the outer layer of the tyre is relative colder, causing blisters that we saw.

Pirelli should have atleast changed the camber adjustments to allow some tolerance, but they didn't do that.

Image

Lower rake is not such a big problem as they have far better suspension systems than they ever had, that manages the load transfer.

FYI. You being a Max fan (which most of us are) has nothing do with how I write posts. I just argue on the merit of a post. In fact, if you go back in 2015 and 2016, you will find so many of my posts defending Max's driving while he was under attack as a "Crash Kid" and I even held him in Senna/Schumacher league back then itself. I admire every good driver for his skill, be it Hamilton, Max, Vettel, Alonso, Schumcher, Senna or Lauda and with the new generation of Leclerc and Russell.
Last edited by GPR-A on Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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OK, thanks for that. Just (a lot of) information, what this forum should be about imho. (Technical). Of course room for emotions is also there sure thing.

I see now edited again, hard to reply on a moving target. Point I was making with that "lure", first your reply was:

"Spanish GP 2019 (C1, C2, C3): Front - 22.5 PSI ; Rear - 20.5 PSI
Spanish GP 2020 (C1, C2, C3): Front - 23.0 PSI ; Rear - 20.5 PSI"

But then later you edited

"Tell the world that is unfair"

Which to me read as I am whining. That seems as a lure, just aimed at triggering someone, but it is also a look into the mindset of how you read my replies. Not so much my mindset, but your own.

Pirelli is I think also playing their own game as it is not in their interest to have either blistering nor ripped sidewall/tread connection. I think that is why they slightly increased front tire pressure. Incase we do end up with a very long stint again (40 laps) that we do not have that issue again. The harder tires (as opposed to Silverstone 2, exact same as 2109 as per your previous post) and lower pressure should mean blistering is also much less here.

I just read on another forum Toto has send an e-mail reading "crush them". So it wouldn't be unlikely if they also open the PU a bit more. Could be interesting, will they succeed to crush or will RBR actually be able to creep closer.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

basti313
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:31 pm

yes they are using the 2019 spec tires. I believe this was a unanimous call? I am not an expert but I believe having higher downforce allows for the tires to be pushed more into the asphalt and thus preventing sliding and preventing overheating and thus blistering. I do agree Merc has that (seems to have that) higher DF level. They were quickest through sector 2 all weekend and considerably so in Qualy, on the limit. Which would seem to confirm that.

I think the problem lies elsewhere. .

....
2019 spec tyres, was not a choice for 2020. ....
I think you are over exaggerating this spec thing. In principle the tire is the same as 2018 which is the same as 2017 with a thinner thread...
After the front wing changes I do not think the downforce can be the limit. Haas had to stop Mag because of the blistering...do we consider Haas on a similarly high downforce level?

Pirelli changed 2018 the tire to remove the blistering we saw this weekend. Should they change again? Another lex Mercedes to avoid Merc has to struggle with tires? Toto already went into politics against high pressures and is successful with it.

Liberty and Pirelli put in softer tires not by accident, but to spice things up. But now they are not standing behind their GOOD decision.

Inappropriate language removed

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GPR-A
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:05 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:31 pm

yes they are using the 2019 spec tires. I believe this was a unanimous call? I am not an expert but I believe having higher downforce allows for the tires to be pushed more into the asphalt and thus preventing sliding and preventing overheating and thus blistering. I do agree Merc has that (seems to have that) higher DF level. They were quickest through sector 2 all weekend and considerably so in Qualy, on the limit. Which would seem to confirm that.

I think the problem lies elsewhere. .

....
2019 spec tyres, was not a choice for 2020. ....
I think you are over exaggerating this spec thing. In principle the tire is the same as 2018 which is the same as 2017 with a thinner thread...
After the front wing changes I do not think the downforce can be the limit. Haas had to stop Mag because of the blistering...do we consider Haas on a similarly high downforce level?

Pirelli changed 2018 the tire to remove the blistering we saw this weekend. Should they change again? Another lex Mercedes to avoid Merc has to struggle with tires? Toto already went into politics against high pressures and is successful with it.

Liberty and Pirelli put in softer tires not by accident, but to spice things up. But now they are not standing behind their GOOD decision. Merc and Ham fans would provide the nicest shitstorm if Pirelli and Liberty would be proud about the decision to go for softer, maybe too soft tires.
What rubbish. Read your post once again. And please quote the posts correctly.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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DChemTech wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:56 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:27 am
basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:14 am
but both Merc and RedBull strategies were faaaaaar from "masterful".
Indeed. Seen articles stating that RedBull's strategy was brilliant. But they actually wanted Max to hang back. Doing so would have given the Mercs half a chance. By deciding to attack immediately, Max put himself ahead on track and in a position to use his tyres to the full.

It was an instinctive thing and it might have gone wrong, but it didn't and so has gone in to the pantheon of brilliant driving moments.
Goes to show that sometimes, in spite of all the data they have, the driver can still 'feel' better what the tires are capable of.
It might be a case of not just feeling his own tyres but also reading thw body language of the cars infront of him to know their were shot and their struggles would get worse.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

basti313
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:25 pm
basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:05 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:31 pm

yes they are using the 2019 spec tires. I believe this was a unanimous call? I am not an expert but I believe having higher downforce allows for the tires to be pushed more into the asphalt and thus preventing sliding and preventing overheating and thus blistering. I do agree Merc has that (seems to have that) higher DF level. They were quickest through sector 2 all weekend and considerably so in Qualy, on the limit. Which would seem to confirm that.

I think the problem lies elsewhere. .

....
2019 spec tyres, was not a choice for 2020. ....
I think you are over exaggerating this spec thing. In principle the tire is the same as 2018 which is the same as 2017 with a thinner thread...
After the front wing changes I do not think the downforce can be the limit. Haas had to stop Mag because of the blistering...do we consider Haas on a similarly high downforce level?

Pirelli changed 2018 the tire to remove the blistering we saw this weekend. Should they change again? Another lex Mercedes to avoid Merc has to struggle with tires? Toto already went into politics against high pressures and is successful with it.

Liberty and Pirelli put in softer tires not by accident, but to spice things up. But now they are not standing behind their GOOD decision. Merc and Ham fans would provide the nicest shitstorm if Pirelli and Liberty would be proud about the decision to go for softer, maybe too soft tires.
What rubbish. Read your post once again. And please quote the posts correctly.
Well read.
The discussion about the 2020 tires is rubbish, because this is not the problem.

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GPR-A
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:59 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:25 pm
basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:05 pm

I think you are over exaggerating this spec thing. In principle the tire is the same as 2018 which is the same as 2017 with a thinner thread...
After the front wing changes I do not think the downforce can be the limit. Haas had to stop Mag because of the blistering...do we consider Haas on a similarly high downforce level?

Pirelli changed 2018 the tire to remove the blistering we saw this weekend. Should they change again? Another lex Mercedes to avoid Merc has to struggle with tires? Toto already went into politics against high pressures and is successful with it.

Liberty and Pirelli put in softer tires not by accident, but to spice things up. But now they are not standing behind their GOOD decision. Merc and Ham fans would provide the nicest shitstorm if Pirelli and Liberty would be proud about the decision to go for softer, maybe too soft tires.
What rubbish. Read your post once again. And please quote the posts correctly.
Well read.
The discussion about the 2020 tires is rubbish, because this is not the problem.
Other than that useless trash (Liberty and Pirelli's secret intention that they whispered in your ears), do you have anything to the topic? Once again, learn to quote the posts please.

basti313
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:04 pm
basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:59 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:25 pm
What rubbish. Read your post once again. And please quote the posts correctly.
Well read.
The discussion about the 2020 tires is rubbish, because this is not the problem.
Other than that useless trash (Liberty and Pirelli's secret intention that they whispered in your ears), do you have anything to the topic? Once again, learn to quote the posts please.
What is a secret? They openly announced softer tires to spice things up for the second race. They were even criticized for not doing this for Austria. So where is the secret?
They just do not have the balls to say "this was successful, we gave the teams an issue to solve...some did well, some didn't".

Which part do you think is quoted wrong?

dans79
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Re: 2020 Formula 1 70th Anniversary Grand Prix - Silverstone, August 7-9

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:44 pm
Pirelli is I think also playing their own game as it is not in their interest to have either blistering nor ripped sidewall/tread connection. I think that is why they slightly increased front tire pressure. Incase we do end up with a very long stint again (40 laps) that we do not have that issue again. The harder tires (as opposed to Silverstone 2, exact same as 2109 as per your previous post) and lower pressure should mean blistering is also much less here.
IMO Pirelli makes garbage tires, as I've said before I've removed them from cars i've owned as soon as I possibly could.

with regards to F1, their leadership is very poor and wishy washy. They could solve the vast majority of the negative press they have gotten since 2010 by exercising more control over how the tires are used. For example the FIA has said in the past if Pirelli mandated maximum stint length they would enforce them. No no that's far to simple and easy to do, instead they play guessing games with pressures and camber settings.


Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:44 pm
I just read on another forum Toto has send an e-mail reading "crush them". So it wouldn't be unlikely if they also open the PU a bit more. Could be interesting, will they succeed to crush or will RBR actually be able to creep closer.
I find this real hard to believe, as that's not his personality at all.
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