2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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214270 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:19 am
I specifically asked about RUSs F1 resumé, and your response is to dismiss the relevance in favour of his F2 accomplishments? So based solely on his run in the lower formula you think he deserves to pilot the Merc 2nd seat?
Correct. If Hamilton deserves a McLaren-Mercedes in his debut season, then Russell deserves a Mercedes in his 3rd or 4th season. It's the least Mercedes can do to support the most impressive junior driver their junior program has ever produced!

Mamba
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:11 am

Correct. If Hamilton deserves a McLaren-Mercedes in his debut season, then Russell deserves a Mercedes in his 3rd or 4th season. It's the least Mercedes can do to support the most impressive junior driver their junior program has ever produced!
I think they keep Russel out because he could be disturbing to Hamilton. Bottas is a team player and Hamilton can beat him on 9/10 weekends. Russel will deliver a Rosberg situation and unlike Ferrari that completely forgets about one driver Mercedes sort of tries to keep a level playing field for their drivers (although when it comes to Silverstone their strategies often differ).

Mamba
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:23 am
The 2017 and 2018 Ferrari could have been theoretically 3 tenths faster in the hands of "Charles"... The world will never know for sure... but it it is something I consider.
Charles was still in F2 in 2017 and only in his first season in 2018. No use wondering where he would have been in those Ferrari's as he wasn't even in the sport. And who is to say Vettel didn't get the maximum out of that car? They suited his style and he was very happy in them. We saw how close the Ferrari's were last year once they finally got the rear to Vettel's liking.

And before anyone brings up Alonso, he burned his own bridges at Ferrari. He was free to stay and they might even have welcomed him to stay had he chosen to.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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sosic2121 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:33 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:31 pm
And boy did he crack
I thought he slipped on some oil.
1.2 litres of cheating oil to be precise.

:lol: =D>
GoLandoGo
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basti313
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:25 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:18 am
Moore77 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:57 am
That's the point he is making, that it was in fact, "Close", not that Mercedes was just saying it was close.
It was "close" before the summer break. But not because the cars were close, but because one of Bot, Ham or the Mercedes team were each race underpreforming and gifting points to Vettel in 2017.
Oz: Strategy error
China: Bot rotating
Bahrain: Tire pressure wrong, unnecessary penalty
Rus: Merc car vastly stronger, but Ham underperforming
Spa: Bot car failure and crash
Mon: Ham underperforming in first Q2 run...out in Q2
Aze: Headrest loose
Aus: Gearbox

It is very strange, that this personal underperformance is now accounted to the car performance...whenever they did not make big faults, Merc was miles away, but mostly only with one car. On the other side, the swing in the other direction would have not been that strong if Ferrari and Vet would not have been similarly error prone starting Azer. But this is also not attributed to the car strength, as there was no strong 3rd car, it was only RedBull stealing much points when the others underperformed.
You failed to make one very important point. In 2017 the Mercedes car was a "Diva." It had problems turning the tyres on and inconsitent performance. When it was bad it was off the pace, when it was good, it was a monster. Vettel duly took advantage of those times like any top driver would. He was doing great until he cracked later in the season.
Looking at the many team errors, it in not a very important point to call the car a diva. Just not making these the WDC would have been secured after 2/3 of the season. Still having one car on top is a bit strange to call the car the issue...same for Ferrari, the second half of the season was basically covered in either being far off the Merc pace, Vet crashing or car defects...all three roughly in the same magnitude. Calling anyone in Ferrari a contender in the second half is like telling Vettel won one of his 2012 WDC against Lewis in a mighty McLaren...this is also not true and everyone would agree due to the many car failures and crashes.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Ringleheim wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:27 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:12 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:05 pm
Rosberg was too good, not as good as Hamilton, but too good to be a defacto number 2. But Rosberg stopped and they chose Bottas.
Agree, I would rank Bottas along the likes of Barichello and Coulthard, whereas Rosberg could share a class with say, Hakkinen, Raikkonen and Button. (not in having the same driving style, but similar overall performance)
Nico Rosberg is not in the same class as Mika Hakkinen!

Maybe Kimi. Button is a class below Kimi and Rosberg.

Mika Hakkinen was going toe to toe--and beating---Schumi at the absolute height of Schumi's powers and when Ferrari had outstanding cars.

I would put Mika Hakkinen in a pretty special tier of driver, actually.
Yeah, totally agree with that. Mika was a talent thats for sure, He was in a poor Mclaren car 4 years, then in 97 they came good but his car seemed unreliable at the most crucial times. Then in 98, despite only winning his first race in the final race of 97, he took all of the pressure of Schumacher and Ferrari and excelled. 1998 , Nurburgring, unbelievable!!!! One of the best drives I have EVER seen. All that pressure, in Germany, his championship lead had disspeared to 0 points in the race before after he was leading in Monza and developed a brake issue that dropped him to 4th or 5th I think it was.
Last edited by NathanOlder on Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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falonso81
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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I might agree that in 2018 Ferrari had a better package in some races, but 2017?? Merc just had some figuring out to do with their car that year and once they solved their problem they disappeared in the distance. The SF-70H was just good at high downforce twisty circuits because of the short wheelbase.

Hamilton would have caught up to Vettel in Germany 2018 regardless if he crashed or not. He had a huge pace advantage on both Ferraris and his teammate. Vettel would have not been able to hold him behind. Also lets not forget how lucky he was that he got away without a penalty at that race.

Wynters
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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The following parts and parameters have been replaced / changed during the Parc Fermé yesterday and today:
Mercedes:
Car 44: LHS front tyre (race start set)

Red Bull Racing Honda:
Car 23: LHS and RHS rear tyre (race start set)

"All above parts have been replaced with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request from the team concerned, this being in accordance with Article 34.2 of the 2020 Formula One Sporting Regulations."

Other parts were changed on other cars but I'm interested to keep track of tyre changes through the season.

The changes to Verstappen's car indicate the depth of the problem identified by Red Bull.
Car 33: ICE (previously used)
Turbo (previously used)
MGU-H (previously used)
MGU-K (previously used)
LHS chassis loom
Brake by wire unit
LHS and RHS front axle ends

On a related topic, "The Stewards reviewed the video and telemetry evidence. The driver ignored blue flags
from at least Turn 6 to Turn 1 of the following lap." This is the wording for both Kvyat and Perez.

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jumpingfish
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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The race in Spain was so boring so people are talking about Vettel-Ferrari-Mercedes in 2017-2018 :D

Vettel's front wing on lap 46 during German gp 2018
Image

tangodjango
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Mamba wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:28 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:23 am
The 2017 and 2018 Ferrari could have been theoretically 3 tenths faster in the hands of "Charles"... The world will never know for sure... but it it is something I consider.
Charles was still in F2 in 2017 and only in his first season in 2018. No use wondering where he would have been in those Ferrari's as he wasn't even in the sport. And who is to say Vettel didn't get the maximum out of that car? They suited his style and he was very happy in them. We saw how close the Ferrari's were last year once they finally got the rear to Vettel's liking.

And before anyone brings up Alonso, he burned his own bridges at Ferrari. He was free to stay and they might even have welcomed him to stay had he chosen to.
There are those inside Ferrari who are convinced to this day that Alonso would have won or at the very least taken it to the last race in 2018.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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jumpingfish wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:47 pm
The race in Spain was so boring so people are talking about Vettel-Ferrari-Mercedes in 2017-2018 :D

Vettel's front wing on lap 46 during German gp 2018
https://i.imgur.com/qMDEF1R.jpg
What about it? He didn't adjust to the downforce loss? :wink:

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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I don't understand the hate towards Bottas, he has shown to be just about as fast as Hamilton come qualifying and his race pace has improved this season.

He wouldn't have kept on Hamilton's tail for most of the race at the Silverstone had his pace been poor.

Once you're stuck in dirty air it's a nightmare to show your true pace, the Finn is doing just fine IMO.

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siskue2005
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:01 pm
I don't understand the hate towards Bottas, he has shown to be just about as fast as Hamilton come qualifying and his race pace has improved this season.

He wouldn't have kept on Hamilton's tail for most of the race at the Silverstone had his pace been poor.

Once you're stuck in dirty air it's a nightmare to show your true pace, the Finn is doing just fine IMO.
The problem is as there are no one else challenging Mercedes, everyone wants Lewis' teammate to be as fast and beating him every now and then (just like Nico was doing in 2014 to 2016)

Wass85
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:39 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:01 pm
I don't understand the hate towards Bottas, he has shown to be just about as fast as Hamilton come qualifying and his race pace has improved this season.

He wouldn't have kept on Hamilton's tail for most of the race at the Silverstone had his pace been poor.

Once you're stuck in dirty air it's a nightmare to show your true pace, the Finn is doing just fine IMO.
The problem is as there are no one else challenging Mercedes, everyone wants Lewis' teammate to be as fast and beating him every now and then (just like Nico was doing in 2014 to 2016)
He is just as fast in qualifying, there's nothing really in it at all.

The races are really governed by who leads going in to the first corner, Bottas showed he can fend Hamilton off in Austria.

Had he pipped Hamilton on Saturday chances are he would have won the race.

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siskue2005
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:45 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:39 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:01 pm
I don't understand the hate towards Bottas, he has shown to be just about as fast as Hamilton come qualifying and his race pace has improved this season.

He wouldn't have kept on Hamilton's tail for most of the race at the Silverstone had his pace been poor.

Once you're stuck in dirty air it's a nightmare to show your true pace, the Finn is doing just fine IMO.
The problem is as there are no one else challenging Mercedes, everyone wants Lewis' teammate to be as fast and beating him every now and then (just like Nico was doing in 2014 to 2016)
He is just as fast in qualifying, there's nothing really in it at all.

The races are really governed by who leads going in to the first corner, Bottas showed he can fend Hamilton off in Austria.

Had he pipped Hamilton on Saturday chances are he would have won the race.
But he is not as fast as Lewis on race days, it is plain and sky that he is no where as fast in race

In Austria Lewis caught upto him so fast, Styrian GP nowhere near, Hungary he was no match, Silverstone he couldnt challenge (Lewis was just holding enough gap to him), 70th GP they both were somewhat equal, Spain again he was no where near Lewis.

As the points are given out on Sunday there is no way to challenge Lewis if you are slow in the race.

And he is not able to beat lewis is qualifying , granted he is closer in times during saturday, but being close doesnot equate to beating him, without beating him in saturday there is no chance at all.

But with Nico, he used to beat Lewis very much in saturday and although he is not as fast in race, Nico was not as bad as Bottas in races