2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Manoah2u
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:44 am
Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:35 am
Bottas called with Rosberg on how to beat Hamilton. That's a move of desperation and panic, of somebody who has no ideas left anymore on how to personally beat him, so he seeks help as last straws. It is the sign of somebody who simply is not capable in any way on his own or naturally to beat his teammate. At best, Bottas gets some (perhaps even dirty) tips, but that's not on merit. Bottas never will beat Lewis. Bottas is 2nd range, and he always will be. He thinks he has the stuff, but he doesn't. He has been made to believe he is/has the stuff, but he hasn't. He's 3rd in the WDC with a dominant car, and half the season isn't even done. 2021 will be his last season with Mercedes.
I watched the Rosberg method of how to beat Lewis and did not like it. I hope Bottas is the same.

It included playing football against the side of his room, constantly grilling burgers outside his window (non vegi I assume) and other things I consider unfair. No wonder their friendship failed.
Is that true? :lol: :lol:
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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:21 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:44 am
Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:35 am
Bottas called with Rosberg on how to beat Hamilton. That's a move of desperation and panic, of somebody who has no ideas left anymore on how to personally beat him, so he seeks help as last straws. It is the sign of somebody who simply is not capable in any way on his own or naturally to beat his teammate. At best, Bottas gets some (perhaps even dirty) tips, but that's not on merit. Bottas never will beat Lewis. Bottas is 2nd range, and he always will be. He thinks he has the stuff, but he doesn't. He has been made to believe he is/has the stuff, but he hasn't. He's 3rd in the WDC with a dominant car, and half the season isn't even done. 2021 will be his last season with Mercedes.
I watched the Rosberg method of how to beat Lewis and did not like it. I hope Bottas is the same.

It included playing football against the side of his room, constantly grilling burgers outside his window (non vegi I assume) and other things I consider unfair. No wonder their friendship failed.
Is that true? :lol: :lol:
It is. I do not remember when and where i read it, but this weekend on Sky he said something similar. Bottas needs to get in his head, then some suggestions of that type.
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Wass85
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:12 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:51 am
Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:35 am
Bottas called with Rosberg on how to beat Hamilton. That's a move of desperation and panic, of somebody who has no ideas left anymore on how to personally beat him, so he seeks help as last straws. It is the sign of somebody who simply is not capable in any way on his own or naturally to beat his teammate. At best, Bottas gets some (perhaps even dirty) tips, but that's not on merit. Bottas never will beat Lewis. Bottas is 2nd range, and he always will be. He thinks he has the stuff, but he doesn't. He has been made to believe he is/has the stuff, but he hasn't. He's 3rd in the WDC with a dominant car, and half the season isn't even done. 2021 will be his last season with Mercedes.
Do you have a source for that?

If that is true that is really pathetic and if I was Lewis I wouldn't be so amicable towards him.

Anyway what did Rosberg actually do any different?

It was Hamilton and not Rosberg who botched his starts, it was also down to luck that he had mechanical problems.

Rosberg just did what he always did and made most of these opportunities which really wasn't that difficult as he had the best car on the grid.
https://www.grandprix.com/news/bottas-c ... dvice.html

tadaa.
"To beat Hamilton, you have to get inside his head, because that's where he is not as strong," Rosberg told Sky Italia in Barcelona."Bottas has to do that now, even if it seems to me that he has some trouble with it.
"He even called me. Maybe the team asked him not to ask me," Rosberg, who clashed badly with Hamilton during the 2016 title battle, smiled.
there are several sources on the matter.

Rosberg started playing psychological (mind) games with Hamilton. I don't know specifically which, but Rosberg mentioned he himself learned tricks and asked tips on Schumacher how to beat Hamilton.

Rosberg is suggesting Bottas was too 'soft' in that area, like he himself was before 2016 as it seems.
It was also that same year that Rosberg was much more agressive towards Hamilton in the races, there was much more contact, and much more animosity. In a way it's questionable whether it worked, as a lot still is down to the fact Hamilton indeed botched many starts and had technical problems which cost him probably the hardest.

Yet, it was also clear from certain briefings that Hamilton was far more 'provoked' ant 'triggered' if you may, and let's be honest, that does influence a driver.

Right now, Bottas looks like he'll simply drive aside for Lewis if asked to, or if he pops up in his mirrors. It also LOOKS like he'll bend to the team's will, and take any team order or strategy. I think that is comparable to Rosberg before, even though i definately concider Rosberg a better driver to start with.

Bottas thus needs to learn to slam his fist on the table, don't play along with dubious pit or tire strategies, and don't let Lewis overtake him that easy. Let's put it like this: it looks like when Rosberg was unable to avoid being overtaken by Hamilton, he damn made sure that the only way to overtake him was in a corner and that resulted in 'accidental' contact between the two. 'all or nothing' mentality, and that's definately Schumi behaviour.

That will result in Hamilton learning that overtaking Rosberg is going to be a risk. If Bottas does that, then Hamilton will learn: overtaking Bottas is a risk.

An example of how this recently works is with how Lewis looks at Verstappen. He knows that overtaking Max is a danger, a danger that he does NOT have with Bottas - and that has nothing to do with the fact Valterri is his teammate: with Rosberg, it was exactly the same.
Overtaking Max is a 'relatively' high chance of contact, and thus could cost him the race and finally the title.

read this for example

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... n-space-f1
Hamilton:

I always leave Max a lot of space because it is the smartest thing you can do.”

he went further in suggesting that clashes with Verstappen were almost inevitable unless he was given a wide berth. “Every driver is slightly different. Some are very smart and aggressive, and some are silly with it,” he said. “So through those experiences you give some more space, and with others you don’t have to because they are quite respectful. But with Max it is very likely you are going to come together with him if you don’t give him the extra space.

Vettel, who has also had several run-ins with Verstappen, gave an acerbic but amusing answer when asked his opinion. Referring to Hamilton’s comments he said: “Just copy and paste. It’s true.”
Why i mention this is exactly what Bottas is missing.

Every driver looks at Verstappen as a danger for contact and thus could ruin your race, and as such, they approach overtaking him differently.

These are the games Bottas needs to learn, as Rosberg suggests will bring a benefit, and I do agree.

That said, personally, i still belive Bottas simply falls way too short in speed and craft anyway, so it probably won't matter, AND i doubt the team will 'accept' that behaviour the way they (had to?) accept it from Rosberg.

BUT, i'm sure 2021 will be the last season for Bottas @ Mercedes anyway, so why not just give it a go instead of being the lap dog laughing stock?
Apart from Austria where Rosberg clumsily tried to run Hamilton wide off the track I can't think of any more examples of this new Rosberg?

That method didn't exactly pay off did it as Hamilton won the race.

The only thing I can really think of that really pissed Hamilton off was Monaco 2014 but the stewards and the team said Rosberg was innocent.

From that day on Hamilton had it in for Rosberg big time, that incident really got to him.

The thing is how could Hamilton had known what Rosberg actually did when he was saying "That was good of him." to Bono? 😂

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Phil
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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If Bottas starts doing that, my guess is he won't be at the team for very long. You know, rolling 1-year contract etc. Rosberg had a slightly different arrangement with the team, was there from the beginning and he also knew Hamilton well. I'd also wonder if these sort of tactics would even work now days, given Hamilton must have learned a thing or two in the process and by going through it with Rosberg.

For instance; Since 2016, he has become a lot more conscious about finishing and not putting himself at risk, given he lost the championship due to a couple of bad starts, technical issues and a DNF. Hamilton has been consistent before, but since then, he's become even more so. Perhaps a result of knowing best about how easy it is to lose a championship if points aren't maximized. Since then, he has shown an amazing ability of picking his fights wisely.

Examples;
In 2017 and 2018 he was on the backfoot going into the championship (vs Vettel/Ferrari), yet he always seemed to maximize his points and results.

I dare say, he has also learned to become a good team-mate, talking up Bottas and racing very fair too. He has not only been aggressive, but he has also shown to give room, space and respect vs his team-mate. Compare his driving in Baku last year when he yielded to Bottas to Bahrain in 2014 when he was at the very limit of cutting across Rosberg when retaking his position. Maybe he took Rosberg as a more capable competitor and bigger threat than Bottas, but any way you put it, but both drivers are very fair despite being perhaps the only two within contention of the WDC this year.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Manoah2u
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:30 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:21 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:44 am


I watched the Rosberg method of how to beat Lewis and did not like it. I hope Bottas is the same.

It included playing football against the side of his room, constantly grilling burgers outside his window (non vegi I assume) and other things I consider unfair. No wonder their friendship failed.
Is that true? :lol: :lol:
It is. I do not remember when and where i read it, but this weekend on Sky he said something similar. Bottas needs to get in his head, then some suggestions of that type.
LOL, that is pure evil :lol:
I'm trying to physically imagine this. Knowing Rosberg mentioned he learned mind games from Schumi, i wonder whether Schumacher ever did this to Hakkinen :lol:
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Hammerfist
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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In fairness to Valteri, Rosberg had it much easier.
First of all I don' t think Hamilton was as good as he is now. He is way more consistent now, he applies himself a lot more it seems.
Also Rosberg was only racing Hamilton from 2014-2016. Noone else was a half serious contender. Bottas has had to deal with Hamilton's main champinship rival in 2017-2018 in Vettel, but also with Verstappen and Ricciardo and sometimes even Raikonnen all being very capable of beating him on race day. Would have loved to see how Rosberg would have fared against those guys. Would have loved to see Rosberg drive those trickier higher downforce cars from 2017 too.
Finally, the main reason Rosberg won to me is simple; reliability. At the end of the day Rosberg had 100 percent reliability that year and Hamilton had a handful of failures. The botched starts were part of it too, but not nearly as defining a factor as to how often Hamilton did not have a reliable car.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Botched starts were more to do with luck than anything. See driver comments on how the new and unrefined "castrated" clutch mechanisms had to be manipulated. It was basically luck of the draw if you get a good launch or not until teams refined the mechanism after summer.

dans79
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:12 am
Botched starts were more to do with luck than anything. See driver comments on how the new and unrefined "castrated" clutch mechanisms had to be manipulated. It was basically luck of the draw if you get a good launch or not until teams refined the mechanism after summer.
Lewis did not get on top of them like he should have. Hence why even in japan well after the summer break he started P2 and was P8 by turn 1.
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Wass85
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Hamilton still had the opportunity to win the title despite the failures and start problems, he just didn't perform to his best abilities.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Wass85 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:19 am
Hamilton still had the opportunity to win the title despite the failures and start problems, he just didn't perform to his best abilities.
Despite his start problems, he still managed to outscore Rosberg over the season had it not been for suffering the team's only reliability failure whilst leading a race. Had they had equal reliability, Hamilton would have won the 2016 title even with his bad starts. He had one more win than Rosberg (would have been two more but for the single reliability failure).

So even with Hamilton having had a "poor season" (he didn't, of course, but we'll go with your narrative), Rosberg still needed the luck of an engine failure to beat him.
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Moore77
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:39 am
Wass85 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:19 am
Hamilton still had the opportunity to win the title despite the failures and start problems, he just didn't perform to his best abilities.
Despite his start problems, he still managed to outscore Rosberg over the season had it not been for suffering the team's only reliability failure whilst leading a race. Had they had equal reliability, Hamilton would have won the 2016 title even with his bad starts. He had one more win than Rosberg (would have been two more but for the single reliability failure).

So even with Hamilton having had a "poor season" (he didn't, of course, but we'll go with your narrative), Rosberg still needed the luck of an engine failure to beat him.
It was also a year where, FIA brought in no driver coaching rules, because of which Hamilton got stuck in a wrong engine mode in Baku and the team choose not to break the rule and he limped home in 5th. Arguably, a help there could have easily taken him to 2nd, instead of 5th. But when a gear box issue occurred to Rosberg in British GP, his side of the team chose to break that rule and help him reset the gear box setting with a host of driver assistance messages, which avoided a terminal failure for him, for a paltry 10 second penalty that put him back in 3rd place, from second. That's was funny though!

Add to that, in Austria, the team made a blunder in strategy and switched Hamilton from a comfortable one stopper to two stopper, which cost him the lead and handed it to Rosberg. Hamilton came out with harder tires to then chase down Rosberg on softer tires. It lead to the incident between the two drivers, where Rosberg drove Hamilton off track. Funny that, he repeated the same move on Verstappen in Germany and slapped a 5 second penalty, but got away in Austria for the same move, only because he got his car damaged.

The most obvious one was to switch the entire set of mechanics between the two garages (except for chief mechanic) at the start of the season, quoting that each one was withholding the information. While Hamilton lost a bit of edge as his mechanics took crucial information on setup with them to Rosberg. Especially after having a dominating 2015 where Rosberg had struggled to match Hamilton. Hamilton then got guys who needed to acclimatize again with his driving style. A number of such incidents made people believe, Mercedes was deliberately helping Rosberg win the title to make a German driver win in a German team. It was the time when Hamilton had a fall out with Toto. :)
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Wouter
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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....
Last edited by Wouter on Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:37 am, edited 3 times in total.

Wass85
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:39 am
Wass85 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:19 am
Hamilton still had the opportunity to win the title despite the failures and start problems, he just didn't perform to his best abilities.
Despite his start problems, he still managed to outscore Rosberg over the season had it not been for suffering the team's only reliability failure whilst leading a race. Had they had equal reliability, Hamilton would have won the 2016 title even with his bad starts. He had one more win than Rosberg (would have been two more but for the single reliability failure).

So even with Hamilton having had a "poor season" (he didn't, of course, but we'll go with your narrative), Rosberg still needed the luck of an engine failure to beat him.
Who said he had a poor season?
I said that despite these difficulties he still had the opportunity to win the title but failed to capitalise, remember Singapore?

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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Maybe (Baku now, since this is the LewHam forum it is not off topic) the team expected Hamilton to remember how to adjust the engine without incurring a penalty (for them telling him how to do it). I seem to remember at some point he did?
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Wass85
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Re: 2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

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Sieper wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:47 am
Maybe (Baku now, since this is the LewHam forum it is not off topic) the team expected Hamilton to remember how to adjust the engine without incurring a penalty (for them telling him how to do it). I seem to remember at some point he did?
Yes I remember that well but I also remember them helping Rosberg out at Silverstone when he had a similar problem, I remember getting the tinfoil hat out after that.