2020 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, August 28 - 30

[Big Tea]

Maybe I was a bit harsh in that statement, but honestly, I'd rather see several good and more or less equal teams go toe-to-toe, than see one or two top-teams outspend and outperform the rest. I lost my interest in soccer long ago for precisely this reason.

What if all the engine makers leave?

I'm not sure if we should turn this topic into a lengthy assessment of budget caps (I'm quite certain such discussions have been held in more appropriate threads before), but well, that's if and buts. It may just as well that other engine manufacturers step in with a proper budget cap, because they may have more of a chance. As it stands, the budget cap proposal seems to have things moving in neither direction, we'll see.

But if the current manufactures are 'driven out' as other manufactures would see it, why would they?

Look at the success Renault and Mercedes have had over the last 20 years, and look at the hassle they have had.
If I represented a maker no way would I take a poison chalice of not being as good as the current crop, as they never are even if they are better in reality, and smudge a reputation that is not currently involved.

Also, just look at tyres now? does that encourage incoming companies?

[siskue2005]

Wow, such bold statements. Tell me more about your highly unlikely feeling. Hamilton winning in that car is even more unlikely - I can't accept this as a realistic prediction.

No need to be sour!

Not even a bit sour. I've been used to Ferrari being a midfield team and Hamilton easily winning the title this season already starting from race 1. Just don't see the sense in repeating that every weekend. We already know it.

You have just recited the definition of "being sour"

[DChemTech]

What if all the engine makers leave?

I'm not sure if we should turn this topic into a lengthy assessment of budget caps (I'm quite certain such discussions have been held in more appropriate threads before), but well, that's if and buts. It may just as well that other engine manufacturers step in with a proper budget cap, because they may have more of a chance. As it stands, the budget cap proposal seems to have things moving in neither direction, we'll see.

But if the current manufactures are 'driven out' as other manufactures would see it, why would they?

Look at the success Renault and Mercedes have had over the last 20 years, and look at the hassle they have had.
If I represented a maker no way would I take a poison chalice of not being as good as the current crop, as they never are even if they are better in reality, and smudge a reputation that is not currently involved.

Also, just look at tyres now? does that encourage incoming companies?

Again, I don't think there's much of a point to discuss ifs and buts, nor is this thread the place to do so with regards to this topic.
All that I am saying is, that from a sports-perspective, the competition should not be about who has the deepest pockets, but it should be about which team (and in case of F1, that's mostly team of engineers) can perform the best, given a level playing field (which, if you don't want to turn it into a spec series with equal material, means equal resources). Sure, that will bring about changes. Some manufacturers might leave, others might join. Some teams might leave, others might join. And I am fine with that, even if that means big changes to the line up. In fact, I would strongly prefer it over the way things are organized in the past decade(s), where it was attempted to level the playing field by narrowing down the allowed specs. That didn't work, clearly, it just made the cars more alike, with the richest teams dominating; but opening up development and allowing for broader specs won't solve that, if some teams still spend considerably more than others. And that was why I made my original comment to Selvam's statement that "the development ban should be lifted". I am all for it, but such a lift should be accompanied by a level playing field on resources, if it is to lead to something that's interesting competition-wise.

[Ringleheim]

No need to be sour!

Not even a bit sour. I've been used to Ferrari being a midfield team and Hamilton easily winning the title this season already starting from race 1. Just don't see the sense in repeating that every weekend. We already know it.

You have just recited the definition of "being sour"

Yep, he's sour. And like so many others in the world, he seems to enjoy arguing--at great length--with anonymous strangers on the internet about nothing.

He must enjoy an enormous amount of free time.

[LM10]

Not even a bit sour. I've been used to Ferrari being a midfield team and Hamilton easily winning the title this season already starting from race 1. Just don't see the sense in repeating that every weekend. We already know it.

You have just recited the definition of "being sour"

Yep, he's sour. And like so many others in the world, he seems to enjoy arguing--at great length--with anonymous strangers on the internet about nothing.

He must enjoy an enormous amount of free time.

Actually my post to you was my first in this forum since a couple of weeks. So i don’t know which “arguing at great length” you mean?

Just told it how it is. It’s like telling that the sky is blue. I’m a Ferrari fan just like you, but contrary to you I’m not sour. Actually it’s you and you’re also sour about Vettel having been and still being a Ferrari driver the way you hate him.
I’m even enjoying Ferrari’s performance in the midfield and looking forward with hope regarding next years.
If you’re happy with repeating Ferrari probably being beaten on track x and y, you’re free to do it. But it’s senseless.

[Juzh]

Hamilton 1:42.3 pole.

Race will have changing conditions.

Reasons for relatively low laptime estimate?

[zibby43]

[godlameroso]

Hamilton 1:42.3 pole.

Race will have changing conditions.

Reasons for relatively low laptime estimate?

Hamilton has only been a few tenths faster than 2019 Ferrari's Q3 time when they had engine cheats. I see a similar trend in Spa.

[PlatinumZealot]

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/japan ... t/2509983/

"... Our wet tyre can displace 61 litres per second of water when fitted to an F1 car travelling at 300kph...."

What makes you say that Pirelli are lying about their capabilities?

It would make sense to apply factors for the increased contact patch of the Pirelli tyres. Might be 30% more and that could explain the extra pumping.

[TimW]

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/japan ... t/2509983/

"... Our wet tyre can displace 61 litres per second of water when fitted to an F1 car travelling at 300kph...."

What makes you say that Pirelli are lying about their capabilities?

It would make sense to apply factors for the increased contact patch of the Pirelli tyres. Might be 30% more and that could explain the extra pumping.

That would get quite complex, you'd have to take car weight, downforce, tire width, tire pressure, etc. all into account.
E.g. for the same car a wider tire will aquaplane earlier. Lower pressure will aquaplane earlier. More downforce delays aquaplaning (that's why rain is not as much of an equalizer as it used to be).

[Juzh]

Hamilton 1:42.3 pole.

Race will have changing conditions.

Reasons for relatively low laptime estimate?

Hamilton has only been a few tenths faster than 2019 Ferrari's Q3 time when they had engine cheats. I see a similar trend in Spa.

2020 merc is now a pretty fast car on the straights, unlike 2019 one. This alone will give save them loads of time. If dry I expect a sub 1m42s at minimum, maybe even beating 2018 lap record is not completely out of the picture, but that'll be hard to pull off. Those 2018 cars were insanely planted on this track, quite amazingly so.

[Sieper]

Maybe because when then still had the FW cascade elements that could clean up the airflow going under the floor. Here we run with small rearwings and the DF has to come from the floor. It is such a long track, maybe we simply win so much on the long straights due to that that we don’t fully loose in the corners.

[SiLo]

Watching them go through Pouhon is going to be awesome this year.

[tangodjango]

Reasons for relatively low laptime estimate?

Hamilton has only been a few tenths faster than 2019 Ferrari's Q3 time when they had engine cheats. I see a similar trend in Spa.

2020 merc is now a pretty fast car on the straights, unlike 2019 one. This alone will give save them loads of time. If dry I expect a sub 1m42s at minimum, maybe even beating 2018 lap record is not completely out of the picture, but that'll be hard to pull off. Those 2018 cars were insanely planted on this track, quite amazingly so.

Do you mean 2017? If I remember correctly 2018 had a wet qualifying or are you talking about the fastest lap during the race?

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

Bridgestone wet tyre water displacment - 34 liters per second
Bridgestone extreme wet tyre water displacement - 62 liters per second
I cant find the figures for the intermediates though.

Pirelli claim inters 30L/s @ 300kph
Full wet 85L/s @300kph
https://www.pirelli.com/tires/en-us/motorsport/f1/tires
But most of their claims are false.
Do you have a source for your numbers?
It's hard to compare without knowing the test speeds.
I remember Bridgestone claim 65L/s for their inters, but I don't know where we can find such old info.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/japan ... t/2509983/

"... Our wet tyre can displace 61 litres per second of water when fitted to an F1 car travelling at 300kph...."

What makes you say that Pirelli are lying about their capabilities?

Bad bit of napkin maths, discarding decimal precision to build in some pessimism

Current F1 tyre width: 415mm (Pirelli state full-wet is 10mm wider than 405mm-wide slick)
300kph -> m/s = 83m/s

Assuming 100% contact (yeah, we'll get to that...):
total area covered in 1 second: 83m * 0.415m = 34m^2

Assume 10mm tread depth. Can't find any info on this so eyeballing it assuming normal car tyres are ~8mm new and look like tractor tyres.

34m^2 @ 10mm depth = 0.34m^3 -> 340 litres/second

Now, about the 100% contact... the tyre surface that is in contact with the track isn't channeling water; it's the tread that's doing the work. Again, bad eyeballing, let's say 20% of the tyre is tread

340l * 20% = 68 litres/second

Pessimistic with the water volumes and probably optimistic on the tread depth and coverage. Balances out... drop 1mm of tread and that falls to 61 litres/second.