Turkish GP announced!!

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Juzh
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Re: Turkish GP announced!!

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:45 pm
Juzh wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:16 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:11 pm


Then he's not flat, is he? A turned down power unit is the same as a backed off throttle. If the car is capable of doing the corner in Q3 with 100% throttle, then that's "flat". If he's doing it in an FP session with, say 100bhp less, then it's nowhere near the same thing at all.

Either way, I reckon that car (and the W11 plus possibly others), in Q3 on decent tarmac i.e. not the ice rink they had this time, would be quicker through T8 and thus "flat" is a higher speed than Max did. I reckon they'd be 290km/h through there in a normal Q3 session.
You're twisting the debate. Flatout means throttle is pinned and that's it. Obviously in Q3 speed would be much higher in normal conditions, it's not rocket science.
As I had said previously, I don't think he has the throttle pinned. That's the point I made right at the beginning.
No, first you tried to spin it as telemetry being false (silly thing to be standing on such a thin ice), then you tried to sway it in the direction that actually it's just not flat because it's fp2, and now you're spinning it back to telemetry showing false data.

And your "point" has been utterly debunked. Now your point is moot and you have not responded to my previous points at all. This makes me think you have your mind set from the get go (not that i'm surprised) and this back and forth is a waste of time.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Turkish GP announced!!

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Juzh wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:04 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:45 pm
Juzh wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:16 pm

You're twisting the debate. Flatout means throttle is pinned and that's it. Obviously in Q3 speed would be much higher in normal conditions, it's not rocket science.
As I had said previously, I don't think he has the throttle pinned. That's the point I made right at the beginning.
No, first you tried to spin it as telemetry being false (silly thing to be standing on such a thin ice), then you tried to sway it in the direction that actually it's just not flat because it's fp2, and now you're spinning it back to telemetry showing false data.

And your "point" has been utterly debunked. Now your point is moot and you have not responded to my previous points at all. This makes me think you have your mind set from the get go (not that i'm surprised) and this back and forth is a waste of time.
I haven't said anything about false telemetry. Do you think I'm somehow dismissing your video in some way and hence have gone on the offensive against me? If so, you've mistaken what I'm saying.

Watch the lap as it unfolds and see how he changes gear. On the approach to T8 he accelerates through T7 from 3rd up to 6th and takes 7th gear just as he turns in to T8. As he does so, the revs drop by about 1000 from about 11.5k to about 10.5k. This is the same sort of rev range seen in the other gear upshifts. As he enters T8, the revs rise slightly and then stay fairly constant around 10.8k-10.9k throughout the corner before starting to climb through 11k as he approaches the final apex. They then keep increasing to 11.7k before he takes 8th gear.

It is this constant engine speed and road speed that makes me think he's holding it just below full throttle. If someone can show that this is all down to tyre scrub then that would be great. We've had a couple of examples - I've suggested Pouhon which was a much higher entry speed and speed through the two apices which one would suspect causes a lot of scrub. Someone else suggested Copse which is also a fair comparison. I wonder whether scrub would lead to a steady reduction in speed from the entry peak to whatever the car could push through the heart of the corner. This is what is normally seen as in Pouhon (and Copse). But in Max's FP2 T8, the speed doesn't peak and then scrub down, it stays basically constant from turn in to exit. That's not scrub - that's the driver controlling the speed. He wasn't running up against the rev limiter on entry either. Ergo, he was holding the throttle at whatever gave him the constant speed from initial turn in to exit. That's why I think he wasn't at 100% pinned throttle.

There, does that help explain my position?
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Juzh
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: Turkish GP announced!!

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:24 pm
Juzh wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:04 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:45 pm

As I had said previously, I don't think he has the throttle pinned. That's the point I made right at the beginning.
No, first you tried to spin it as telemetry being false (silly thing to be standing on such a thin ice), then you tried to sway it in the direction that actually it's just not flat because it's fp2, and now you're spinning it back to telemetry showing false data.

And your "point" has been utterly debunked. Now your point is moot and you have not responded to my previous points at all. This makes me think you have your mind set from the get go (not that i'm surprised) and this back and forth is a waste of time.
I haven't said anything about false telemetry. Do you think I'm somehow dismissing your video in some way and hence have gone on the offensive against me? If so, you've mistaken what I'm saying.

Watch the lap as it unfolds and see how he changes gear. On the approach to T8 he accelerates through T7 from 3rd up to 6th and takes 7th gear just as he turns in to T8. As he does so, the revs drop by about 1000 from about 11.5k to about 10.5k. This is the same sort of rev range seen in the other gear upshifts. As he enters T8, the revs rise slightly and then stay fairly constant around 10.8k-10.9k throughout the corner before starting to climb through 11k as he approaches the final apex. They then keep increasing to 11.7k before he takes 8th gear.

It is this constant engine speed and road speed that makes me think he's holding it just below full throttle. If someone can show that this is all down to tyre scrub then that would be great. We've had a couple of examples - I've suggested Pouhon which was a much higher entry speed and speed through the two apices which one would suspect causes a lot of scrub. Someone else suggested Copse which is also a fair comparison. I wonder whether scrub would lead to a steady reduction in speed from the entry peak to whatever the car could push through the heart of the corner. This is what is normally seen as in Pouhon (and Copse). But in Max's FP2 T8, the speed doesn't peak and then scrub down, it stays basically constant from turn in to exit. That's not scrub - that's the driver controlling the speed. He wasn't running up against the rev limiter on entry either. Ergo, he was holding the throttle at whatever gave him the constant speed from initial turn in to exit. That's why I think he wasn't at 100% pinned throttle.

There, does that help explain my position?
I see where you're coming from, but you are by your own words saying telemetry is false in this case. You're saying he's not flat when telemetry clearly shows he is. By your logic there would have to be a lift shown, but it isn't. I explained this can happen in a rare scenario when a driver lifts just a few percent for a very short amount of time (I do mean short, less than 0.1s). You're proposing a constant lift in order to maintain constant speed, but this would 100% show up as a lift. This is not what's happening here.

I maintain this constant speed is simply a result of ers turning off at the point of turn-in at which time ICE alone can't propel the car any faster at those power settings. After the corner is over, or just before that, ers turns on again for that downhill stretch and speed rises.

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Shrieker
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:41 pm

Re: Turkish GP announced!!

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Ah, full throttle, but not full beans. That actually makes a lot of sense given the track conditions.

Was this the fastest lap of the weekend btw, Juzh ? It sez P01, so it must be.
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Juzh
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Re: Turkish GP announced!!

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Shrieker wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:59 pm
Ah, full throttle, but not full beans. That actually makes a lot of sense given the track conditions.

Was this the fastest lap of the weekend btw, Juzh ? It sez P01, so it must be.
It is, yes.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Turkish GP announced!!

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Listening to the audio, I would say theres a small llift in there.
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henry
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Re: Turkish GP announced!!

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:24 pm

Watch the lap as it unfolds and see how he changes gear. On the approach to T8 he accelerates through T7 from 3rd up to 6th and takes 7th gear just as he turns in to T8. As he does so, the revs drop by about 1000 from about 11.5k to about 10.5k. This is the same sort of rev range seen in the other gear upshifts. As he enters T8, the revs rise slightly and then stay fairly constant around 10.8k-10.9k throughout the corner before starting to climb through 11k as he approaches the final apex. They then keep increasing to 11.7k before he takes 8th gear.
Another possible explanation is that the slight Rev rise on entry to T8 is because the Tractive effort exceeds the drag and the car is accelerating. The drag comes mainly comes from aero drag and tyre drag. If the extra tyre drag from scrub equals the excess power that was causing acceleration then the behaviour would be to stop accelerating and continue at a constant speed. Which is what you have observed.

Edit: for completeness. At Copse and, particularly Pouhon, higher speed means higher aero drag and consequently little available TE for acceleration. In this case the scrub increases drag above the available TE and speed falls.
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yelistener
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Re: Turkish GP announced!!

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Pouhon and Copse are very incomparable to Turkey T8. Entry speed is about 310km/h, 40-50km/h higher than T8, a hell lot of difference in aero drag.

Campsa is much more comparable as they have the same entry speeds & in same gear.