2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Jolle
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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For everybody who thinks that a VSC or even just yellow flags would be ok for marshals to be on track recovering a car..... a few laps prior a car became a projectile because of a complete fail of brakes. With a SC you have a relative long period where you're sure that there isn't a car on track near you.

That no body at Mercedes read the circuit notes closely, is their problem.

ispano6
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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hollus wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:01 pm

I am serious, ispano. Why the need to ask? Are you suggesting that I am... nevermind.
I had never seen the details of Billy Monger's crash. Now I have since you pointed it out and yes, it makes it clear that crashing onto a static car can neglect the presence of crash structures if the angle is just wrong. So point completely conceded and something learnt. Clearly leaving the car there is not the best plan.
I disagree on Bianchi, though, the problem there was precisely trying to remove the car. But irrelevant in any case in view of Monger's accident.
People shouldn't ask for rules changes just because their favorite driver and team was penalized ...
Are you serious? The furthest from a Hamilton or Mercedes fan here (hint: Asturias). I couldn't care less if Hamilton won or lost, on merit or by luck. It bothers me, though, that everyone seems to be categorized into pro or anti Hamilton, pro or anti Ferrari, etc. I (am many others here) just like the high speed chess games, the engineering marvels at work and the drivers doing the seemingly impossible with said marvels. Well, and asturian drivers, of course.
So you don't care about the safety of the drivers and marshals... I can't reason with that.
It bothers me, though, that everyone seems to be categorized into pro or anti Hamilton, pro or anti Ferrari, etc
I said "People", not necessary "You". Don't take it so personally.
So you are a fan of Asturian drivers. Does that mean you are a fan of Spanish drivers Carlos Sainz Jr and Fernando Alonso? Your comment regarding leaving a stricken car on the side of the road being OK is just proof that you disagree with the protocol that was enacted for the safety of everyone, probably because Carlos lost to Pierre and HONDA? So maybe it wasn't your favorite team/driver that was penalized but one of your favorite drivers who didn't win.
I disagree on Bianchi, though, the problem there was precisely trying to remove the car.
I fully agree, a second cat going to the same spot was unlikely.
It bothers me more that people make irresponsible comments regarding safety protocols.
The crash before Jules should have been a safety car instead of yellow flags. A safety car would have prevented Jules from driving at dangerous speeds in those conditions. The problem wasn't trying to move the stricken car, the problem was cars were allowed to race with little discretion of yellow flags in conditions and in a location where a repeat ACTUALLY happened.

sosic2121
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Questions:
What happens in the moment of SC deployment?
I mean during that first lap before everyone catches the SC. Also what are the rules for driving when for example pit under SC and then catching the pack. Are you allowed to drive as fast as you can?

Jolle
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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sosic2121 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:47 am
Questions:
What happens in the moment of SC deployment?
I mean during that first lap before everyone catches the SC. Also what are the rules for driving when for example pit under SC and then catching the pack. Are you allowed to drive as fast as you can?
No, there is a delta in the event notes. It was introduced after that faithful Suzuka race for obvious reasons.

sosic2121
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Jolle wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:43 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:47 am
Questions:
What happens in the moment of SC deployment?
I mean during that first lap before everyone catches the SC. Also what are the rules for driving when for example pit under SC and then catching the pack. Are you allowed to drive as fast as you can?
No, there is a delta in the event notes. It was introduced after that faithful Suzuka race for obvious reasons.
So, something like VSC.

Thanks

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Moore77
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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ispano6 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:46 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:10 pm
Yes but again WHY did some deserve good karma and some deserve bad karma? This is what is not being understood?
There is no why, there just is. Good Karma came from diligence and Bad Karma from arrogance. If anyone feels crappy about the results of the race, maybe they deserve to feel that way. Alpha Tauri ebbed and flowed with good Karma, Red Bull likely had some bad Karma. Good decision making led to Good Karma, bad decision making led to Bad Karma. Are you going to ask "BUT WHY?" again? If so, direct your question to those responsible for the Bad Karma and arrogance and decision making! Sometimes people need to eat a slice of humble pie or their own words. Like those who trash talked Honda PU being slower than the Renault "lump" in the back of the McLaren. Surely Bottas should have won the race if the Mercedes car was so dominant. People here were calling the race even before it happened. I said wait until the race is over. Abiteboul said that Red Bull missed the "trick" of not being a PU manufacturer and car builder in one. Well look what the small budget Alpha Tauri team was able to pull off. If anything, Alpha Tauri has had more time to work with Honda as a partner and the notion of "customer" team isn't here as they get equal support and treatment with Red Bull through Red Bull Technologies.

I could say "eat crow" or "what goes around comes around", would you understand that?
Pany wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:29 pm
But if you pretend to fight for title you must be competitive in Monza too
Moore77 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:11 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:49 pm
I love how Mercedes are pretending that the party mode ban makes them stronger. I can bet my last bottom dollar that the snake Wolff would never have been using it the other way round if it was so. What is scary is how much faster Mercedes would be if they had the modes.

The arrogance can be smelt from a distance. One day this will end, and the saying 'how the mighty have fallen' will imply.

Will they have the guts to stay and fight it out or will they go home?
It's the usual rule of the human history that those in power, can afford to be arrogant. Mercedes have more good reasons to be arrogant as rule change after rule change, nothing is stopping them. By the time they fall, I am sure the legacy would something that the F1 would never forget. So more than saying, how the might have fallen, they would probably remembered as "How great that team was". They endured frustrating few years, toiling in the mid field and facing a great deal of embarrassment before taking the F1 by storm. For as long as they last in the way they are, they can afford to be arrogant and the world can simply watch on.
BAD KARMA hitting for those who didn't do a good HOME WORK! I agree.
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

ispano6
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Moore77 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:23 pm
BAD KARMA hitting for those who didn't do a good HOME WORK! I agree.
See you understand now. Definitely hitting that side of the garage.

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Moore77
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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ispano6 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:04 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:23 pm
BAD KARMA hitting for those who didn't do a good HOME WORK! I agree.
See you understand now. Definitely hitting that side of the garage.
:D
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

Diesel
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Jolle wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:40 pm
For everybody who thinks that a VSC or even just yellow flags would be ok for marshals to be on track recovering a car..... a few laps prior a car became a projectile because of a complete fail of brakes. With a SC you have a relative long period where you're sure that there isn't a car on track near you.

That no body at Mercedes read the circuit notes closely, is their problem.
100% correct, so why did Masi allow the Haas to be pushed across a live track when the SC had only just been called, the field hadn't yet bunched up behind the SC and cars were likely to be diving for the pits. He screwed up, closing the pit lane was a panic reaction when he realised what was going to happen, if it had all been part of the plan they would have closed the pit lane and announced the SC at the same time, or they would have waited until every was bunched up behind the SC before trying to recover the Haas.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

Jolle
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:45 am
Jolle wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:40 pm
For everybody who thinks that a VSC or even just yellow flags would be ok for marshals to be on track recovering a car..... a few laps prior a car became a projectile because of a complete fail of brakes. With a SC you have a relative long period where you're sure that there isn't a car on track near you.

That no body at Mercedes read the circuit notes closely, is their problem.
100% correct, so why did Masi allow the Haas to be pushed across a live track when the SC had only just been called, the field hadn't yet bunched up behind the SC and cars were likely to be diving for the pits. He screwed up, closing the pit lane was a panic reaction when he realised what was going to happen, if it had all been part of the plan they would have closed the pit lane and announced the SC at the same time, or they would have waited until every was bunched up behind the SC before trying to recover the Haas.
Don’t know if you can call it “screwed up” by Masi.

It’s also quite possible that there is a protocol if there is an incident in the sector of the pitlane, they close the pitlane right away.

I, as a Hamilton fan and an admirer of the solid work of the Mercedes team over the past decade, clearly see for this they have only themselves to blame.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:02 am

I, as a Hamilton fan and an admirer of the solid work of the Mercedes team over the past decade, clearly see for this they have only themselves to blame.
One of the commentators was saying that one of the midfield teams use a bit of software that monitors all of the info coming from the FIA / stewards and flags up pit lane closures and the like. Seems other teams are now doing the same thing, so it's likely we won't see the same mistake made again by any team.

It would be interesting to know that the stewards would do if the pit lane was closed after a driver had committed to the pits but not yet entered them i.e. he was in the pit entry lane but not past the pit lane speed limit line. If he rejoined the track to avoid the now closed pit lane (in the opposite way to Kimi in Mugello), would they penalise him? The driver would be "damned if he did, damned if he didn't".
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Jolle
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 am
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:02 am

I, as a Hamilton fan and an admirer of the solid work of the Mercedes team over the past decade, clearly see for this they have only themselves to blame.
One of the commentators was saying that one of the midfield teams use a bit of software that monitors all of the info coming from the FIA / stewards and flags up pit lane closures and the like. Seems other teams are now doing the same thing, so it's likely we won't see the same mistake made again by any team.

It would be interesting to know that the stewards would do if the pit lane was closed after a driver had committed to the pits but not yet entered them i.e. he was in the pit entry lane but not past the pit lane speed limit line. If he rejoined the track to avoid the now closed pit lane (in the opposite way to Kimi in Mugello), would they penalise him? The driver would be "damned if he did, damned if he didn't".
Simple, a 5 second penalty for crossing the pitlane line. Doesn’t matter from what side you cross the line.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:40 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 am
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:02 am

I, as a Hamilton fan and an admirer of the solid work of the Mercedes team over the past decade, clearly see for this they have only themselves to blame.
One of the commentators was saying that one of the midfield teams use a bit of software that monitors all of the info coming from the FIA / stewards and flags up pit lane closures and the like. Seems other teams are now doing the same thing, so it's likely we won't see the same mistake made again by any team.

It would be interesting to know that the stewards would do if the pit lane was closed after a driver had committed to the pits but not yet entered them i.e. he was in the pit entry lane but not past the pit lane speed limit line. If he rejoined the track to avoid the now closed pit lane (in the opposite way to Kimi in Mugello), would they penalise him? The driver would be "damned if he did, damned if he didn't".
Simple, a 5 second penalty for crossing the pitlane line. Doesn’t matter from what side you cross the line.
Yes, but the driver could claim force majeure in that the pit lane was closed after he committed to the lane. In other words, the FIA made him break a rule - either the pit lane line crossing rule, or the pit lane closed rule.

I would expect that the driver would get away with crossing the line to rejoin the track in such a circumstance, so long as it was done carefully and didn't impede other cars.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Jolle
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:02 am
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:40 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 am


One of the commentators was saying that one of the midfield teams use a bit of software that monitors all of the info coming from the FIA / stewards and flags up pit lane closures and the like. Seems other teams are now doing the same thing, so it's likely we won't see the same mistake made again by any team.

It would be interesting to know that the stewards would do if the pit lane was closed after a driver had committed to the pits but not yet entered them i.e. he was in the pit entry lane but not past the pit lane speed limit line. If he rejoined the track to avoid the now closed pit lane (in the opposite way to Kimi in Mugello), would they penalise him? The driver would be "damned if he did, damned if he didn't".
Simple, a 5 second penalty for crossing the pitlane line. Doesn’t matter from what side you cross the line.
Yes, but the driver could claim force majeure in that the pit lane was closed after he committed to the lane. In other words, the FIA made him break a rule - either the pit lane line crossing rule, or the pit lane closed rule.

I would expect that the driver would get away with crossing the line to rejoin the track in such a circumstance, so long as it was done carefully and didn't impede other cars.
If the light goes red at the moment the driver is already committed, the logical outcome would be to allow it.
But that was not the case now. Pitlane and SC were called at the same time I think, Hamilton went into the pit because of the safety car.

Diesel
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Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:07 am
If the light goes red at the moment the driver is already committed, the logical outcome would be to allow it.
But that was not the case now. Pitlane and SC were called at the same time I think, Hamilton went into the pit because of the safety car.
The pitlane was closed 12 seconds before car 44 entered the pitlane (mentioned in this doc here https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 20lane.pdf), not at the same time as the SC was called.

If you watch the video on this page, you get a sense for how tight it was https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 7IkGi.html
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP