2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
Jolle
Jolle
199
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:35 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:07 am
If the light goes red at the moment the driver is already committed, the logical outcome would be to allow it.
But that was not the case now. Pitlane and SC were called at the same time I think, Hamilton went into the pit because of the safety car.
The pitlane was closed 12 seconds before car 44 entered the pitlane (mentioned in this doc here https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 20lane.pdf), not at the same time as the SC was called.

If you watch the video on this page, you get a sense for how tight it was https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 7IkGi.html
More then enough time to see the signs (which drivers and teams are made aware of in the pre-race communications) and more time enough for their 60-ish support crew behind screens monitoring the race.

Diesel
Diesel
72
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:40 pm
More then enough time to see the signs (which drivers and teams are made aware of in the pre-race communications) and more time enough for their 60-ish support crew behind screens monitoring the race.
I'm not excusing it, I agree, but it was clearly a panic reaction from the race director, rather than announcing both at the same time. Masi is out of his depth, the recent statistics around red flags, penalties, etc. show that
Last edited by Diesel on Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

Jolle
Jolle
199
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:49 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:40 pm
More then enough time to see the signs (which drivers and teams are made aware of in the pre-race communications) and more time enough for their 60-ish support crew behind screens monitoring the race.
I'm not excusing it, I agree, but it was clearly a panic reaction from the race director, rather than announcing both at the same time. Masi is out of his depth, the recent statistics around red flags, penalties, etc. show that.
I can't remember a red flag that wasn't right? of moments when it was time to red flag and there wasn't?

and which penalty did Masi give? Isn't that up to the stewards of the meeting?

Do you even know what part of this traveling circuit he is responsible? Or are you just searching for someone to blame?

So far he's and his team been consistent with red flags, safety cars and VSC.

Diesel
Diesel
72
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 pm
Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:49 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:40 pm
More then enough time to see the signs (which drivers and teams are made aware of in the pre-race communications) and more time enough for their 60-ish support crew behind screens monitoring the race.
I'm not excusing it, I agree, but it was clearly a panic reaction from the race director, rather than announcing both at the same time. Masi is out of his depth, the recent statistics around red flags, penalties, etc. show that.
I can't remember a red flag that wasn't right? of moments when it was time to red flag and there wasn't?

and which penalty did Masi give? Isn't that up to the stewards of the meeting?

Do you even know what part of this traveling circuit he is responsible? Or are you just searching for someone to blame?

So far he's and his team been consistent with red flags, safety cars and VSC.
Consistently not using the VSC you mean? :roll:

Various comments in this article which sum up the current problems:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/54141953
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

Jolle
Jolle
199
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:58 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 pm
Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:49 pm


I'm not excusing it, I agree, but it was clearly a panic reaction from the race director, rather than announcing both at the same time. Masi is out of his depth, the recent statistics around red flags, penalties, etc. show that.
I can't remember a red flag that wasn't right? of moments when it was time to red flag and there wasn't?

and which penalty did Masi give? Isn't that up to the stewards of the meeting?

Do you even know what part of this traveling circuit he is responsible? Or are you just searching for someone to blame?

So far he's and his team been consistent with red flags, safety cars and VSC.
Consistently not using the VSC you mean? :roll:

Various comments in this article which sum up the current problems:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/54141953
Here is a clear combinations about the pitlane sings. This is what the team somehow failed to read.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... tes%20.pdf

Jolle
Jolle
199
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:58 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 pm
Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:49 pm


I'm not excusing it, I agree, but it was clearly a panic reaction from the race director, rather than announcing both at the same time. Masi is out of his depth, the recent statistics around red flags, penalties, etc. show that.
I can't remember a red flag that wasn't right? of moments when it was time to red flag and there wasn't?

and which penalty did Masi give? Isn't that up to the stewards of the meeting?

Do you even know what part of this traveling circuit he is responsible? Or are you just searching for someone to blame?

So far he's and his team been consistent with red flags, safety cars and VSC.
Consistently not using the VSC you mean? :roll:

Various comments in this article which sum up the current problems:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/54141953
This article is primarily about the safety car restart from last weekend.

As for not using the VSC that much this season, people tent to forget that we're not driving at the normal F1 circuits. These old style tracks don't have cranes in every corner and old style boarding, gravel traps etc.

Plus, somehow, in comparison to previous seasons, the drivers are making a lot of mess. my gut feeling is that we have a lot more accidents than previous years.

as for "making a show with a SC", this is a bit of a tale... just doesn't work in modern F1 compared to oval series.

Diesel
Diesel
72
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:00 pm
Here is a clear combinations about the pitlane sings. This is what the team somehow failed to read.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... tes%20.pdf
Yes I've seen this, I posted it much earlier in the thread.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
639
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:07 am


If the light goes red at the moment the driver is already committed, the logical outcome would be to allow it.
But that was not the case now. Pitlane and SC were called at the same time I think, Hamilton went into the pit because of the safety car.
This was a hypothetical discussion point rather than about Hamilton's error in Monza. Knowing the FIA's current "make a good show" approach, I wonder whether they'd be realistic or showman in their approach. Hopefully we won't have to find out.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
639
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 pm


and which penalty did Masi give? Isn't that up to the stewards of the meeting?
Breach of a closed pit lane is specified in the regulations. There is no way for the stewards to do anything other than give a 10-sec stop/go penalty. The only way around it would be if the pit lane was closed after a driver entered it.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
El Scorchio
21
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:58 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 pm
Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:49 pm


I'm not excusing it, I agree, but it was clearly a panic reaction from the race director, rather than announcing both at the same time. Masi is out of his depth, the recent statistics around red flags, penalties, etc. show that.
I can't remember a red flag that wasn't right? of moments when it was time to red flag and there wasn't?

and which penalty did Masi give? Isn't that up to the stewards of the meeting?

Do you even know what part of this traveling circuit he is responsible? Or are you just searching for someone to blame?

So far he's and his team been consistent with red flags, safety cars and VSC.
Consistently not using the VSC you mean? :roll:

Various comments in this article which sum up the current problems:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/54141953
I know this relates mainly to the Tuscan GP and the SC restart which caused carnage, but this line from Bottas about the SC restart point was very telling:

"Our team opened up the discussion this morning before the race that it is a bit of a concern here," he said. "But they said basically they are going to keep doing it because it is better for the show."

Essentially the evidence that some of us have been suggesting for some time is true. Masi's primary concern is for 'the show' rather than actually overseeing a fair and safe race with no artificial interference. This directly makes it obvious why there have been safety cars called numerous times this season when it's clear VSC was all that was necessary. This race director seems to think that it's more important to waste laps bunching the cars up behind the safety car in the hope of some action to follow, rather than taking the path of least interference, neutralising the race for as short a time as possible and then letting them get on with it as if the interruption had never happened.

And I fully agree he's out of his depth and/or not doing his job properly.

basti313
basti313
52
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:58 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 pm
Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:49 pm


I'm not excusing it, I agree, but it was clearly a panic reaction from the race director, rather than announcing both at the same time. Masi is out of his depth, the recent statistics around red flags, penalties, etc. show that.
I can't remember a red flag that wasn't right? of moments when it was time to red flag and there wasn't?

and which penalty did Masi give? Isn't that up to the stewards of the meeting?

Do you even know what part of this traveling circuit he is responsible? Or are you just searching for someone to blame?

So far he's and his team been consistent with red flags, safety cars and VSC.
Consistently not using the VSC you mean? :roll:
Where would a VSC have helped?
With a VSC there would have been the same and correct closure of the pit lane. Hamilton would have still entered the pits and the Ham fans would still be crying for this precious loss.And I am convinced that pushing the car next to the main straight is still the point where one should not race but have a real SC looking at the thread for the Marshalls.

For me it is anyways the other way round: If FIA would like to screw the Mercs, they would send the Safety Car quick out of the pits. In all recent races they waited half a lap. Like this no one was caught behind the SC.
Example this week...when Ham crossed the pits he was given a free stop, they could have changed the whole car in this time as the SC was send out after Ham and before Bot...
Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:58 pm

Various comments in this article which sum up the current problems:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/54141953
This is a bit of nonsense...we have the stupidity that cars can not follow. So during a SC restart the leader just waited for the SC to disappear and then full speed for 1/4 of the track.This is in my point of view a bit strange SC behavior. Every other racing series manages to do something Bottas did last weekend: Wait for the Start/Finish and push the throttle. No idea why F1 drivers are not capable of this.

Diesel
Diesel
72
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

basti313 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:06 pm
Diesel wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:58 pm
Consistently not using the VSC you mean? :roll:
Where would a VSC have helped?
I was making a general comment about the lack of VSC since Masi has been race director, rather than suggesting the VSC was appropriate for this specific incident at the Monza GP.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

Diesel
Diesel
72
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:27 pm
Location: ...

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:52 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 pm


and which penalty did Masi give? Isn't that up to the stewards of the meeting?
Breach of a closed pit lane is specified in the regulations. There is no way for the stewards to do anything other than give a 10-sec stop/go penalty. The only way around it would be if the pit lane was closed after a driver entered it.
Jolle's point is that Masi doesn't give penalties, the stewards do, the race director can report something to the stewards but it's ultimately the stewards that issue the penalty.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

User avatar
siskue2005
183
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:49 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:07 am


If the light goes red at the moment the driver is already committed, the logical outcome would be to allow it.
But that was not the case now. Pitlane and SC were called at the same time I think, Hamilton went into the pit because of the safety car.
This was a hypothetical discussion point rather than about Hamilton's error in Monza. Knowing the FIA's current "make a good show" approach, I wonder whether they'd be realistic or showman in their approach. Hopefully we won't have to find out.
If a car enters and commits to the pit entry but if the pit entry before he crosses turns red then i suppose the FIA wants the driver to park it there and wait until the light turns green before entering (same as when they exit the pit if it is red). :cry:
If they want to cut across and go to actual track then they will get a 5 sec penalty for sure, even if force majure FIA wont accept it as they want show rather than fairness

Jolle
Jolle
199
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:29 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:49 pm
Jolle wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:07 am


If the light goes red at the moment the driver is already committed, the logical outcome would be to allow it.
But that was not the case now. Pitlane and SC were called at the same time I think, Hamilton went into the pit because of the safety car.
This was a hypothetical discussion point rather than about Hamilton's error in Monza. Knowing the FIA's current "make a good show" approach, I wonder whether they'd be realistic or showman in their approach. Hopefully we won't have to find out.
If a car enters and commits to the pit entry but if the pit entry before he crosses turns red then i suppose the FIA wants the driver to park it there and wait until the light turns green before entering (same as when they exit the pit if it is red). :cry:
If they want to cut across and go to actual track then they will get a 5 sec penalty for sure, even if force majure FIA wont accept it as they want show rather than fairness
Not entirely, there is an exemption in the event notes that state that outside a fault of your own you may cross the pit line. A uncoordinated closing of the pitlane would be such a case. Being crowded over the line by another driver would be another.